my confession-Robert A,

My Confession 16th August, 1990 Robert: What I teach is utter nonsense, gobbledygook. It has no meaning except to my Self. I have no teaching. It is simply my confession. It’s useless for most people because I’m not giving you direction. I’m not telling you to meditate for twelve hours a day or to stand on your head or to utter mantras, there is no instruction. There is just my personal confession, the way that I feel. Now, it does some people good for it is an invisible instruction, by just being here, by just opening your heart, something happens. So don’t listen with your head. Do not try to analyze or judge or come to any conclusions. As I always say, "Do not even believe a word I say," why should you? Who am I? I am nobody, nobody important. Listen to your own heart. I’m sort of a mirror. What you see in me is your self. Subsequently the way you feel about yourself is the way you feel about me because you're looking into the mirror. I can truthfully say that I am ultimate oneness, absolute reality, emptiness, unborn, nirvana, I am that I am. When many people read spiritual books on Advaita Vedanta or on Jnana Marga, they immediately try to act out the part and they memorize many of these quotations, sayings, they become useless. You have to go through spiritual disciplines to get to the place where you wake up. In my own experience, I had probably did these disciplines in a previous existence, for when I was very young I had felt these things. I had no idea what it was until I read the books, so reading of books confirmed my experience. And then I went to see Ramana Maharshi, for I had already felt this. There is a difference. I've got to be very careful what I say, because this path sometimes gives people license to become arrogant, obnoxious, rude. It’s just the opposite if you really have Jnana, knowledge, you show lovingkindness, mercy, compassion, joy and you express your Self as that. Many of us believe in a cause. In metaphysics we learn that there is a cause for everything. And even on the path of Jnana Marga we say there is a substratum. But that's just to explain that there is an underlying power. But in truth I tell you there is no substratum, there is no cause. There isn't any cause for anything. Since there is no cause there is no effect. What I am saying is simply this: You're always looking for a reason, for why you are like you are, why you have these habits, why you look and appear to be this way, why your kind or why your mean. You're always looking for a reason, a solution, a cause, but there is no reason, there is no cause, there's no effect, there's emptiness. Emptiness is the Self and I am That. Now when I speak of I-am, I am not referring to Robert. I am referring to omnipresence. I-am is That. Therefore when I utter I am, I’m speaking for all of us. For there is only one, ultimate oneness and we are all ultimate oneness, there is no distinction. People ask me strange questions. It's strange to me but not to them I guess. For instance someone asked me this week, "How come all the great Sages died of disease, not all of them but some of them, like Ramana died of cancer, Nisargadatta died of cancer, Jesus was hung on the cross?" And the question was, "If these people are so great, why did they suffer so?" And I can only laugh when I hear a question like this. The answer is who sees the suffering? For whom is there suffering? This is why in my predicament, people say I've got Parkinson’s disease. And they try to help me with remedies and I have to bite my lip to keep from laughing because I see perfection. Perfection is all there is, oneness, ultimate reality, there is nothing else. But you say, "But I see these people suffering, do my eyes deceive me?" And then I answer, "The sky is blue," when someone takes me outside and say, "Robert, look at the beautiful blue sky," so I agree, but I know in reality there is no sky and there is no blue! It just doesn’t exist! It’s an optical illusion – a mirage in the desert – there appears to be an oasis with water but when you get closer there is only sand. It's the same thing. Your eyes deceive you, your senses deceive you, things are not like they appear. All is well and everything is unfolding as it should. There are no mistakes. No mistakes have been made, no mistakes are being made, and no mistakes will ever be made. Everything is perfect just the way it is. Consequently when you see a condition, before you judge you have to ask yourself, "Who sees that condition? For whom is that condition?" For instance, let's take a simple example. If we all looked at this room and I asked you, "What is your impression of this room?" One person will say, "Oh I think it's lovely," another person will say, "I hate it!" Another person will say, "It's too small," somebody else will say, "It’s too big," somebody else will say, "It’s very clean," someone else will say, "It’s very dirty," that's how it is, you're seeing yourself. You're seeing nothing but yourself. The world is a reflection of your mind. The universe is an emanation of yourself. If you didn't exist there would be no universe. The universe exists because you exist. You are the universe and that's true of every so-called fact in your life. It's a fact that someone is dying and if someone dies, that's a fact but it’s not the truth. The truth is, we are all unborn. Noone was ever born. If noone was ever born how can you die? Noone was born and noone dies. Again I’m expressing my confession. That’s how it appears to me. That’s what I mean when I say, "This teaching is useless to most people," because you can't do anything with it, yet things happen, lives improve, spirituality grows, happiness ensues, bliss comes. It all happens spontaneously. Just by being present and this is what satsang is all about. By being present, without taking thought, with out manipulation, without playing mind games, without trying to improve yourself, without thinking of yourself, without thinking of others, everything good happens, all by itself. Why? Because emptiness is goodness, nirvana is absolute reality. The unborn is the Self and you are that, what else can I say. So what do you think about this. I’m open to questions. SG: I have a question: The hill that Ramana Maharshi spent his life, Arunachala, what function did that play in his enlightenment? And what function does the natural areas, the harmonies that are out there and balanced ecosystems of the world important for us to keep in touch with? R: It’s important for some people. Arunachala for some reason had a tremendous impact on Ramana’s life. Arunachala is another name for Shiva, and Ramana's family, his ancestors, were all worshipers of Shiva. So the hill called Ramana at an early age. Some mysterious power led him to the hill, that was his experience. There have been others who have walked around the hill and felt absolute nothing and it was meaningless for them. The same is true of the other places you are speaking of. For most people they mean nothing. Now what happens to most people, especially in the West, they imagine they're feeling something, it’s a mind game. It’s just like the healing shrines. You work yourself up into a frenzy and you can’t wait to get to this healing shrine. So naturally when you go there, you experience a healing. It’s not the shrine that did it, it’s yourself because you worked yourself up into a frenzy. it is your mind that caused it. And I'll relate a true story that happened in this way. In Italy, in a little town there was a healing shrine. People used to come from all over the world and they would climb the steps and get on their knees and hundreds of thousands of people were actually healed from all kinds of diseases. Now, the fathers of the town found out from some scientists that there was going to be an earthquake in that town. This article was in Time magazine in about 1967. So what the fathers decided to do, is to remove the remains of the saint who was buried underneath the shrine to another point of town where there was no earthquake. They began to dig, and low and behold no saint was ever buried there, there was nothing. They built the shrine upon nothing. What did the healing? How come all these thousands of people were healed? It’s all in the mind. When you psych yourself out mentally, you can accomplish almost anything. So again to answer your question, most of these things are meaningless. Arunachala meant a great deal to myself. I've had experiences inside Arunachala. But for most people it’s just a hill. So again the answer is this: Work on yourself, worship yourself, find yourself, find out who you are. And when you do this everything becomes Holy, and like Moses said, "The ground upon which I stand is Holy ground." Everything becomes Holy, not only certain places but everything. And that’s only because you have become that your Self. Your omnipresence makes it Holy. You have become one with all there is and you can truthfully say, "All of this is the Self and I am that." Does it make any sense? (SG: Yes) Good. (SG: In what sense is the spirit of the whole earth our mother?) Our brother? (SG: Our mother, as giving us birth to another state of being.) The earth has no power without you, you are the power and the earth is within yourself. So when you become powerful, the earth has power. When you are weak, the earth is weak. The earth like the universe is an emanation of yourself. The mother, the father, it's all within you. Everything is within your Self. There is no power outside of yourself. When you see some power happening from some place, it is because collectively people are giving it their power. But the people are the power. They misunderstand. They think the thing has power by itself. Nothing exists except yourself. Nothing exists because everything changes, nothing is ever the same. What changes, cannot be real. Take your body for instance: You didn’t always look this way. When you were conceived you were no larger than the size of a pinhead, that was you. And then you became a little baby, a teenager, an adult and now here you are. So you were never the same as you were years ago. This is true of everything. This chair used to be a piece of wood, a tree. Now it has become a chair. Everything comes from the same source, nothing. Nothing exists, except the Self. Everything is like a dream. When you have a dream, you dream you're flying an airplane, you're going to China and to Japan, then you come back here and you go to sleep. And then you wake up, it was a dream. This life is also like a dream. One day you will awaken and realize who you are and you will realize there is no power outside of your Self and even there’s no power within yourself. No power exists only the Self exists nothing else is necessary. So we make up all these games, they're all mind games. They do not lead us to self-realization, they lead us to further delusion. That’s why we're born again and again and again, until we wake up. And then reincarnation stops and then we become totally liberated and free, which we already are. SS: When you go out and deny that there's a blue sky? Do you see the blue skies? Or doesn't it make any difference. R: No, I see the blue skies but I see my Self, as the blue sky. (SS: And you enjoy it?) Sure, I enjoy my Self. I always enjoy my Self twenty-four hours a day. SD: I asked him the same thing once, what about chocolates and sunsets? And he said, "You are the sunset which you enjoy." (SS: But that's after the ego dissolves then you're able to.) Annihilate the ego. R: Let's imagine you believe you're enjoying the blue sky, then the next moment there's thunderstorms, lightning and you become frightened and you cry. What happened to your enjoyment? When you realize that you are the Self, blue skies, thunderstorms they're both the same. Nothing can hurt you. (SS: So you can enjoy both of them?) There's no one left to enjoy, you just are these things. You are bliss. You have become sat-chit-ananda – being, knowledge and bliss. That's your true nature. This is why I said in the beginning, these words are meaningless, unless you've experienced That, otherwise they don't mean anything. (SS: Yeah you kinda lost me again.) (laughs) Most people like to go to classes. Where the teachers chants mantras and gives you relative knowledge and tells you how to improve your finances and your health and your lifestyle. Those people draw thousands of followers, but of course these things don't exist. They exist for a while. You get a good feeling. You improve your life for a while but you have to go on with your life and soon you die and then where are you? No-where. (SS: That's why I go and when I do, it gives me a good feeling, there's always something missing.) It's all good when you need it, nothing is wrong with anything. (SS: I'm still going to get the good feelings and...) Yes. (SS: ...do the chanting and all that but I feel like there's something more, like I can't stop there.) Then you'll go onward. (SS: Pardon?) You'll go onward wherever you have to go. (SS: Look at discipline, sometimes I get the feeling that I'm just not very disciplined so I need to go to some place like that so I can get disciplined, like, I don't have enough of that or...?) As I said before, this path is sometimes a contradiction because it is true you need discipline, and then again you don't need discipline. There's a time when you do and a time when you don't, but, if you follow the principles involved, by asking yourself, "Who is it that needs the discipline?" You will realize that your true Self, never needed discipline but your ego does. And since you are not the ego there is no one left for discipline it all evens itself out. SD: When you refer to discipline what do you mean? What would be the definition of it? R: Well I mean not being rude to other people, not being obnoxious, being kind and loving, putting other people first, having compassion, helping others. (SD: So you're not talking about meditation or mantra's?) Well meditations and mantra's are good, but they are only to make you one-pointed, to make the mind one-pointed, so you can disintegrate the mind. SS: So it isn't important then, even now to do meditation? R: It's important for some people. Again if you can make your mind quiet then it's unnecessary, but all the spiritual discipline you are referring to, are only to quiet the mind. When the mind is quiet, everything happens by itself. When the mind is noisy the world becomes real and terrible for you. Therefore mantras quiet the mind. Meditation quiets the mind, everything leads to quietening the mind. (SS: Watching your breath?) To quiet the mind. (SS: So you don't need any fixed thing or fixed time or power of the mind to do all that?) Yet there are some people who do need that kind of discipline because that's the way they are in this life. (SS: How would you know?) It's all karmic. Your heart will tell you, what feels good, what feels right. SS: On the way out here today on the freeway today, I did that, “to whom does this state was?” or whatever and I did this on the way out here and I was just real calm. Even if I thought of like rushing, “who did this idea of time come?” You know, I mean the mind was going the whole time asking those questions yet even though it was, I didn't feel rattled or ruffled because I didn't get identified with any of the things that came up. (R: It's a great psycho-therapy.) Is that all it is though is it? (R: No, it's the highest form.) I mean it kept coming but inbetween there was some quiet because I mean as soon as something would come up, the question would be there to cancel out any dadadada, imaginings that go with it. Once you start thinking about, time in the traffic and – you know how the mind goes – so it just stopped. And another thing that it did was, it may be totally unrelated but every time I did that I could see that there was some kind of – I don't know? R: As you keep that momentum up you'll be surprised at what happens. (SS: Well I thought yeah, if you could do this all the time everything would dissolve.) Yes, you have to catch yourself. Whatever thoughts come to you, you simply ask yourself, "To whom do these thoughts come?" (SS: Even if they were good things, I did it, you know and it made those okay but I don't know how to say it.) I understand, you're doing well, that's good. (SS: I thought, gee if I could do that all the time, it would be good.) Then ask yourself, "Who needs to do it all the time?" When you do it often enough, it will begin to do you. (SS: It was kinda doing me after a while.) (laughs) It didn't feel uncomfortable, it felt very natural, a very natural place to be.) SD: It seems to detach you a little and not feel personally involved, which is great. R: It does yes. Just doing that is sufficient for most people. (SS: What's that?) Just doing what you're doing is sufficient for most people. (SS: But can you ask too many questions like that?) No, if you want to go deeper you can go deeper with that, but don't do this when you're driving your car. When you're driving your car what you did is sufficient, but when you go home then you could do it differently, you can ask yourself, for instance, if you're feeling depressed, "To whom does this come?" and then you realize it comes to you. So you say, "It comes to me, I feel this, I feel depressed, I feel terrible." Then you ask yourself, "Who is this I? From where does this I come that feels terrible?" But don't answer. Just follow it, follow the I to its source and you will realize that all of life, the relative world, is attached to I. And when the I is dissolved, everything else is dissolved with it. It happens by itself. You simply go deeper with the I, deep, deep, deep. "From where comes this I? Where does this I come from?" or "Who am I?" Whatever feels good for you and you will realize that the I comes from nowhere. It doesn't exist. It never did exist. You are free, you are bright and shining, you are the one. (SS: You're not going to sit and just contemplate your navel all day. You're still going to do your activities and all that?) Of course you are. You'll even do your activities better than you ever did before. (SS: I sometimes feel when I've gone into a yoga, I saw myself as strong.) You're having the wrong experience. The right way is to let your body do whatever it has to do. Your body came to this earth for a purpose, so-itappears, and your body is going to do whatever it came here to do, but it has nothing to do with you. SD: So is that what you mean when you say that we are not the doer? R: Exactly, you don't have to concern yourself about work or non-work, whatever you're supposed to do you're going to do, it's all preordained, just be happy SS: What happens when your money runs out and you're not able to work? R: Why do you believe this will happen? See you’re giving it strength. You're thinking mentally that this may happen. (SS: It may be close right now, it appears to be.) Well then thinking mentally about this makes it stronger. The more you worry about this the stronger it becomes, but, if you push that thought way out of your mind, your omnipresence will come forth. SD: What if you say, "To whom does this thought come? To whom does this fear come?" R: You can do that too, yes. SN: The fear of poverty is only because it’s the ego that's afraid that it's poor. R: Of course, remember the trees do not lack for leaves nor do the flowers fail to bloom, everything is beautiful and so are you. You can never experience lack, except mentally. Have faith, trust your Self and trust the power that knows the way. Which is within you, everything will be okay. SD: I remember you saying if everything is predestined then - at least on the earth plane - might not look at us trying to be poor or rich, couldn't you still look with the same detachment on that more or less? R: Well, but for whom is there poor or rich? Who has to look with detachment? It's back to the ego again. SN: The more afraid you are of being poor the stronger the ego is. For the Self, wealth and poverty are the same. So the more fear you have the further away you are going from the Self and what Robert says, "Is preordained," so worrying about it does not really alter it. Not that you should not do anything about it, but realize who you are. Who is rich and who is poor? When you reach a peace, it is beyond wealth and poverty. So whenever there's a fear of poverty, that's only the ego, and when there's the Self, you're always rich. The Book "The Lilies of the Field" and that's what that says, why worry about poverty, but of course we can do that but that’s... (SD: The goal.) R: The truth is you can never suffer, never, if you flow with the Dharma, you can never suffer, it's impossible. (SD: But if you seem to be then that's the ego suffering?) The ego is suffering, you've got to work on yourself. If you change conditions it's no good. As an example, if you think that your husband is giving you a hard time and he's unemployed and he can't support you, so you say, I'll trade him for another husband. Then when you get the other husband you've got other problems, because you've not resolved it in your own mind. It has to start and end with you. You can't change outside conditions. It only appears for a while that you can, but it always comes back again. The chickens always come home to roost. So wherever you go, wherever you run, you have to take yourself with you and if you've got a poverty consciousness, wherever you go you're going to experience poverty. So don't change anything, but work on yourself and see who you really are and what you really are and you'll never have to be concerned about poverty again. SD: It's like Jesus saying, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you," because we don't really do anything in that state because you've let go, you know. SS: Well, because I haven't worked and because I've got a disability now. And whether I should use the mind thing of picturing myself of being able to work and that's just as bad. Just to do that, or another way which is just temporary. And think I'm going to picture myself doing such and such... R: Yes. The best you can do is to make yourself happy. The happiness will take care of everything else. Really be happy from the depths of your soul. Do not look at conditions. Conditions change, but make yourself real happy because you are you. Not because you have something, but because you are you. Happiness has nothing to do with person, places and things. Happiness is a state of mind. If you can be happy it'll change everything in your life. (SS: You turn on the switch by self-inquiry?) Yes, but forget about the switch. Be yourself and you will know what to do. You did not come to this earth to suffer you came to find yourself and to be happy... (break in tape as Robert continues) R: ...and a big income, to think we're prosperous. It's wrong, our values are completely warped. (SD: And you have to say, "Whoever has the most toys when he dies wins." (laughs) That's so ironic in the Self because who cares about this or that or...) See poverty and prosperity are secondary. The first thing is to find your Self. That's why you came to this earth. Everything else will take care of itself. SS: I've been in both places, I've never had true poverty, okay but I've had big houses and cars and all that whole stuff and then I've had, where, I've had just enough to meet my needs and either way's okay I feel that, I feel that burden kind of like keep on meeting my needs, okay like... (changes topic) Health insurance? Even though I'm going off topic, but health insurance, isn't that a fear thing? (R: Of course.) But do we get it anyway because we live in this... (R: If you need it.) ...if you need it. I used it a lot this year. Some years I never use it at all, but you know, I have a roof over my head and food to eat, the things that I need money for are my phone, my health insurance and my car insurance and if I need to buy a pair of clothes. I'll buy that once in a while, I don't really need a lot. SD: But sometimes I say to myself and I think Robert taught me this, that at any given moment you have everything you need and this thought at any given second. (SS: I know right now.) Right now, are you hungry? (SS: No, no, insurance is paid. I go back to this health insurance business. There's something about it?) SN: Setting against the Self. (Yeah.) Any type of insurance. R: You have to do what you have to do. SD: Maybe she was led to have it for this need now, maybe she won’t need it anymore? R: Take this body as an example, I own nothing. (SS: You owe nothing?) I own nothing. There's nothing I own, but I've got everything. I have nothing but I have everything. (SD: But you're so much advanced, more advanced than us.) Well, I don't know about that, except that I have no needs. I live in a good place, I eat properly, but I own nothing, I'm just there. (SS: I don't own anything either.) I have no insurance. (SS: Oh yeah, I know that but I have use of a car, but I don't really own the car and I don't own the house that I live in.) SD: I think you are better off than me. (laughs) The way that I feel about insurance, this maybe a stupid earth plane reaction but it kind of ties in with this but the odds are just for money. Those companies wouldn't stay in business if they weren't making any money. (SS: I probably have used the insurance now, this year and why would they? They're way behind.) (laughs) Or they'll raise the rates. (laughs) R: But you got to be very careful when you talk about these things. (SS: You giving them power?) No I mean, if you don't have the consciousness, you can cause a lot of problems for yourself. I remember many years ago we had a class about something like this and I used to talk about when I lived in Hawaii, and I used to talk about the fact that I never locked my car and nothing has ever been stolen because I never felt that I needed to lock my car, so I never did. But I apparently said the wrong thing to somebody, because there was one person in the class who always locked his car because he didn't trust anybody. When he heard me talk about this, he said he was going to do the same thing. He was a shirt salesman. In the back of his car he had samples of about twenty different shirts and the one time that he didn't lock his car, someone stole all of the shirts out of his car. (laughs) So I said, "I didn't tell you to not lock your car" I said, "I don't lock my car!" But you have to do what you have to do until the time comes that you don't have to do it anymore. Everybody is different. (SD: That's what I meant by you being more advanced, you know.) I don't think I'm more advanced it just happened like that. SS: People are comfortable with that, you don't have any fear about it. R: I don't even think about it. (SS: The thing to do with insurance is if I still think about it, I probably just get it.) That's right. (SS: That means by buying it doesn't mean, make you get sick though necessarily? No, why should it make you get sick, unless you think you've got to get sick so you can use it. (SS: No, no, there has been a lot of times when I've had it and didn't even know I had it and didn't even use it.) Some people think that they're paying for nothing and they say, "So why don't I just get sick? I've got to use my insurance." (laughter) (SS: No, yea I don't care if I use it, I'll donate the money.) (laughs) (pause while students have some refreshments) SN: Robert I have a couple of questions. Do you consider Ramana your guru? R: I consider Ramana as my Self. I look at him as more than a Guru. I look at him as the Universe, as life itself, which is none other than my Self. So he is simply another aspect of me. When I was with him, I paid him homage because he was my Self. So I was paying myself homage, do you follow that? I treated him as I would treat myself. When I came, I brought food, I brought flowers because I am the flowers and I am the food. It's all one. But the actual word "guru" means teacher. And Ramana was no one's teacher. He was simply doing the same thing I do. He was simply confessing the truth about himself. And the people who wanted to sit around him were welcome. He didn't care. In other words he never said I am a teacher and these are students. He looked at everyone as himself and he just went on with his daily activities and people just sat all around him. When he would go to sleep on the couch, the whole auditorium they would go to sleep on the floor. SN: Well say for instance, some people will read some books, like "Who Am I" and they would be saying that, "Ramana's my guru." (R: Well it can't hurt.) (laughter) SD: In a sense of Master teacher? (R: It can't hurt.) SN: I was reading a book by Ramana. (SD: Did he really write it?) R: He just wrote some verses, but the mistake that most people make about that, is there's too much separation. And as long as there is separation there is going to be trouble. Because if you fall in love with the guru, the first mistake the guru makes, so it appears, then you hate him. Because physical Love is the other side of the coin of hate. But when you look at a guru as not being a person, but being your Self, that's different. (ST: Can you repeat that?) When you look at a guru as not being a person but being your Self that's a completely different story. You make a mistake according to your thinking. See because you give them your own... (ST: Egoless? That you’re egoless...) Yes I was just going to say that. You want God to live up to your expectations. (laughs) (SS: And that's your ego wanting freedom?) Yes, in other words, you are creating God in your image. So you expect the guru to do this. As an example, say you're celibate, so of course you're going to expect your guru to be celibate. Say you live in a cave, so you want your guru to live in a cave also. And if he lives in a house you'll say that's not a Guru because he lives in a house he should live in a cave. See we give all our expectations to the guru. SD: Don't we do that to God too? (R: To God, same thing.) And we anthropomorphize. R: Exactly, but the true way is to totally surrender to your Self. Then you will be led to the true sat-guru which is none other than your Self and then there will be harmony. Because then you couldn't care less what the guru does because the guru is your Self. SN: Robert doesn't that also happen in personal relationships rather than love the guru you have that love in your personal relationships and you have expectations and then you get put down? (R: Of course.) Not any different? (R: Of course.) SD: I think most people fall in love with an image of the other person, and what usually happens in relationships is that neither person can live up to the other so the other has to move forward. R: Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed. (SN: And should you also see the other person in the relationship as your Self?) Yes, you should. (ST: How do you do that?) R: You simply realize there is one Self and that Self is me. So you and I are one, therefore, whatever you do to me I can't be mad at you. (SS: Yes, but how do you do that? (laughs) By working on yourself. (SS: With self-inquiry?) Through self-inquiry, through mind control. (SD: Would you ask yourself, "Who feels hurt?") You can ask yourself "Who feels hurt? Who is seeing all these things? To whom do these feelings come?" ST: In every situation rather than change the situation you have to change yourself wherever you go? R: Yes you have to bring your Self with you. (ST: (tape unclear)) Same thing exactly. Well you have to draw a line some place, some time, depends on your advancement, your maturity. But if you're living with a person that you can't get along with and you want to develop yourself, and you can't be in those circumstances then you should change them. But if you're not working on yourself if you change your circumstances they'll pop up somewhere else. SS: But there's a lot of relationships where one person is working on themselves and the other person couldn't careless what’s happening and they can get along. Is that true? R: Yes, but as you work on yourself, you will know what to do. For instance if someone comes to me and they say, "I want your car." That’s not strange to me. (SS: They want your car?) They want my car, if I feel in the mood to give it to them, I'll say, "Take it," if I don't, I'll say, no, and forget all about it. But I won't think about it or I won't get caught up in the struggle. "Why does she want my car? What is he going to do with my car?" I don't think that way. (laughter) I'll say, "If you want it, take it," if I don't think so I'll say, "no I can't give it to you," and that's the end of that. There is nothing to think about, there's nothing to worry about. I once had a beautiful ring and somebody really liked it, so I took it off and gave to him because I'm not attached. What's rightfully mine can never be taken away and that's my Self, everything else comes and goes. ST: (tape unclear) R: You don't get attached but you have a loving feeling, a kind feeling. (ST: So how would you do it?) By being attached means you own them. It's like you own the person and they have to do what you want, that's attachment. SD: But can it be the other way round so that they own me? R: Yes it can, same thing, but if you're free then you love them, but you don't let them walk all over you. But you still love them. You do what is necessary. (SD: That's like the story of the man and his sons?) Something like that yes. Now I don't mean to make this cold and calculating. I mean, I love you more than anybody else can ever love you in your life and you don't know that but I'm not attached. Do you see the difference? SS: Even if you never saw us again it wouldn't make any difference. R: And yet I'd give up my life for you, can you follow that? You are me, we are one and I could do nothing but love you. Because I have no life. (SS: Oh?) Who's life are you going to be giving up? There's nothing to give up. ST: Well how do you deal with emotions? R: You ask yourself, "To whom do they come?" (ST: Yeah but why are they there?) They're not, you think they do, it's like hypnosis. You've been brought up in a way to have emotions but they don't really exist. So when you ask yourself "To whom do they come?" they'll disappear. SD: Emotions comes from thinking, right, and thinking comes from ego? R: Yes but then again you can say, "But I like to have good emotions I don't want to get rid of all my emotions." That's hard to explain, but when you're empty, you've got love and bliss and joy and you have those feelings toward everything. So you don't need those emotions that you're talking about, those are from the mind. You simply ask yourself "To whom do they come?" (ST: You mean it's that easy?) Oh yes, but you have to mean what you say. SD: And after, turn in again? (R: Yes.) Because we're so programmed and not aware of it. SN: It's not mechanical, it’s not a mantra "To whom do they come?" (SS: How can you keep that from becoming mechanical?) Mechanical is "To whom do they come? To whom do they come? To whom do they come? To whom do they come?" (SS: Right.) But when you really ask, "To whom do these come?" that's the difference. R: When you ask from your heart, instead of your head. (SS: Probably a different kind of feeling in a way?) Sure it does. SN: Well one you're truly asking, the other it's just mechanical, you're not asking at all. SS: That's how affirmations become, they just become mechanical - but there was nothing that soothed me and everything that I picked up or read that helped me in the past meant nothing. R: I'll tell you what affirmations do. Say you have to catch a plane and you're late, so you have to affirm to yourself, "I will catch this plane. It will wait for me. I'm going to catch this plane." So you go to the airport and the plane is late and you catch the plane and you say, "Boy these affirmations work," then the plane crashes. (laughter) (SS: Well you won't use that one.) (laughter) So forget about affirmations. (SS: Be careful what you ask for.) You'll get it. (SS: That's just the thing about health, wishing for that or wish for...) See that's funny to me, you know why? Because if you wish for health that means you've got a disease. (SS: Yeah, that's the affirmation for disease.) So you're affirming the disease is getting bigger all the time. You say I wish I was healthy, I wish I was healthy, I'm going to be healthier and healthier everyday. That means you are sicker and sicker every day so you can be healthier and healthier. (SS: How do they coin that, psychologists, Emile Coue?) Emile Coue. (French psychologist/optimistic autosuggestion.) (SS: Yeah and he had this everyday and in...) "Day by day in every way." (SS: ...everyday I'm feeling better and better.) That helps to an extent. (SS: For a period of time, but if you don't resolve it from the top, it will always be coming back and it’s going to be two sides of the coin.) Yes, those things are for neurotic people, all these affirmations, I'm getting better, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Forget about it, there is nobody to get better because nobody's sick. (SS: There’s no better-ness.) SG: Isn't there the other aspect of introspection? Which is being part of the creative process of manifesting the I-am and isn't there two directions to go in the aim of searching or questioning, "Who am I?" and the result of that, the gift from that questioning, the answer to that question, "I am This" and so do we not have responsibility to create the Self. (R: No.) To manifest the Self? R: The Self does not have to be, no, because who is manifesting the Self? In reality nothing only the Self exists and nobody needs to manifest it. It's like asking God to manifest God. You already exist as the Self. (SG: Are we creators? We have a mind that wants to create?) The mind is the creator. (SD: Put the mind in the ego realm.) SS: But the mind merges into the heart though? Okay when you get to that point. Is that what you're speaking of John when you get to that point when the mind merges with the heart. R: Everything that the mind creates, it creates problems. (ST: So the mind is not really needed?) Yes. SG: Is music a problem or art? R: Art and music are part of the material world, they are of a higher state, they are of a higher consciousness. (ST: The highest consciousness?) No, higher, but they are still a part of the relative world. When you are your Self, you are music. So you don't have to create music. SD: But I think what John is talking about is like what Joel Goldsmith teaches, who was one of Robert's teachers, when he said, "There's no one to ask for abundance because you are abun dance.” Abundance is not having a demonstration, you are abundance and those are simply manifestations of your abundance. SG: Well what makes so much sense to me, is the self-inquiring is that the answer to the question is not an affirmation it isn't, "I am this, I am that." In asking, "Who Am I?" The answer can happen naturally. Instead of a conditioned answer of who we believe we are. SD: Oh right, because you're not even supposed to answer as Robert says, you just wait for the answer and the answer will ultimately come to you. SG: Right but there is that aspect of the process, there is the - all I can do is ask, right? "Who Am I" but there is also the answer which is happening too right and is that the creativity? R: It's not really creativity. See the answer already exists by itself. And by inquiring, you're opening yourself up for the answer, but the answer is already there. (SG: Oh I see.) So there is noone needed to create anything. SG: But aren't we also opening up our bodies, our ego, our feelings and our minds, which have been in the past, closed, or we're not opening that up to the answers so that they can express through our minds? R: You can call it opening up, but those things that you mentioned do not exist. Therefore when you open up you just become, but you don't have to go through the process you're talking about. You simply ask the question and the answer comes by itself. It's like being in a room of darkness. To get to the light you don't have to go through a series of processes. You just turn on the switch and the light exists. It's the same thing. You don't have to create the light, you don't have to pray for the light. You don't have to make something so that the light will come, you simply turn on the switch. (SD: And it was there all the time.) (SG: Right) So by asking the question, that's the switch. (SG: But if we stop asking then the light goes out again uh?) You get caught up in the world, you get caught up in the world. (SG: Yeah.) SD: Also, I've got a question and tell me if I'm wrong, but the answer doesn't always come to you and that's why we keep having to do something for it. When it comes isn't that your awakening? R: Yes, it's like the sun and the clouds. (SS: It will come in the words?) No, it's like the sun and the clouds. The sun is always shining, it never goes away, but sometimes clouds block it. So it's an ignorant person who says there's no sun. What do I have to do to make the sun come out? So I'll climb upon a ladder and push the clouds out of the way. Or shall I get a wind machine and blow the clouds away. The clouds are always there because of ignorance. When the clouds dissipate the sun shines once again. (SD: But it never stopped.) It never stopped. The light within us is always bright and shining but we cover it up with ego and mind. So when the ego and mind is removed, we shine once again in all our splendor, like we're supposed to. (SD: Are the ego and mind the same thing?) Just about, the mind actually creates the ego, but those are just terms? (SD: So if you get rid of the ego, you get rid of the mind and vice-versa?) Yes, If you follow the I back to its culmination they both go. (SD: Oh that's right because you said that the mind is the projector and the ego is the screen.) Yes. SG: I can see that the highest aspect of the arts from the audience point of view is a tool to draw someone into reality. (R: That's true, true.) Like the Buddhist, Mendorla. But I know that without my mask of my ego I don't have a perspective, to create something. (R: How do you know?) Because I've been through that in my earlier years, of realizing that I had talent in a certain area, such as theatre. I also felt lost because I didn't have a perspective. I didn't know what I wanted to communicate. R: But you're still talking in egoic terms, because the ego was lost. The ego felt lost. (SG: Isn't there a positive aspect to the ego as far as being a mask of thought where the dance is concerned?) It appears like this. If you want to get caught up in the dance of life then you do those things you're talking about, that's true. (SG: And can we not wear the mask and be aware that it is the mask and see that there is a function for it in everyday life, getting along in the world?) If you want to, but it will still pull you back into earth again because you're attached to something. To become totally free you have to be unattached to everything. That doesn't mean you won't do it. You can become a great artist and not be attached and you do beautiful artwork. So you can do whatever you like but just don't be attached. Realize that you are not the doer. (SG: Is there a certain amount of attachment that a Bhodhisatva has to take on, in order to survive in the world?) No, your body will take care of itself. There's a power that runs the universe and it takes care of bodies. But you are not the body. So you work on yourself and your body will take care of itself and it will do whatever it came here to do. (SS: Whether it's theatre or not.) Whether it's theatre, whether it's not, whether it's nothing. Whatever you came here to do you are going to do but you have nothing to do with it. ST: But how do you know if you've done it already? R: You don't have to know. Something does know and something will lead you and guide you. But don't be attached to your body. (ST: To your body?) Yes. You will be guided. You will be directed in the right way. There is nothing to worry about. If you came here to be a nurse, no matter how you try not to be a nurse you're going to be a nurse. Nothing can stop you no matter what you do. SD: Because of predestination and karma? (R: Yes.) SG: In the younger years of life, isn't there a function that, what I want to be is the ego then right? But isn't there a certain amount that is necessary to get us through school and so training can happen, because if we decide before we've gone through that we are God and that's what we want to be then maybe we won't feel we have to go through the education and the processes of becoming. R: If you are realized, it all depends on what your body came here to do. Some people go to school, some people don't, everybody's different. But it doesn't matter. See we get caught up with all these thoughts. Keep thinking about your Self and everything will take care of itself. SG: It's like we have to have something to throw into the fire to begin with. You know what I mean? Doesn't there have to something, ego first, in order to burn up? R: The ego burns up last. It's like we have a fight with all of our thoughts and we get rid of everything and the stick we use is the ego and then we have to throw in the stick also. (SD: But I think he's asking if the ego's necessary up to a certain point? SG: Yeah.) The ego is never necessary. (ST: Why does it exist then?) It doesn't. You think it does. (laughter) It's because we're talking. SD: Because we're talking about the earth plane and the worlds evolution, right? (R: Yes, exactly.) It's all part of the dream. SN: Knowing the end you don't really have to ask questions and the only reason why you're asking questions so that you'll come to the realization that you don't have to ask questions. I have a question. (laughter) (SP: You don't have to ask it.) Dana Did you say, abundance is a Cadillac. SD: No I said abundance is not a Cadillac. I said abundance is within you. You are abundance and the Cadillac or Ferrari whatever was a manifestation of abundance, but... (R: How about the Volkswagon?) (laughs) ...that too, you don't have to ask someone yourself or God or anybody else for abundance, it's not like, "Please, please, please can I have..." because you are abundance and that realization will manifest these things, but the things are not abundance. We have to make that distinction. Things are not abundance you are abundance. SN: I have a question on consciousness. I suppose the question is, what is consciousness? And is consciousness the Self? And the thing that brought the question on is I was thinking about the fourth state, the waking state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state. Now in the dreamless state is there consciousness? And in my experience there is no consciousness and I questioned what is consciousness and what is the Self? And is the consciousness and the Self the same thing? R: Consciousness is an aspect of the Self. Consciousness is the creative principle, of the true Self, it's the next step before the true Self. It's the creative principle that creates everything. Everything that appears created comes from consciousness. So in reality you are consciousness. It's another name for awareness. All these names are synonymous really. Consciousness, Awareness, the Self, God, but yet they're also different aspects. Consciousness is like universal mind. SN: But is there consciousness in deep sleep? R: Yes, there is but you're not aware of it. (laughs) (SN: That's what I'm trying to get at. I remember reading that in the waking state, the dreaming state and the dreamless state, there is still the Self. I can relate to the waking state, I can even relate to the dreaming state. For me the dreamless state is, before I go to bed I'm awake, and then I go to sleep, and then I wake up and the period between going to sleep and waking up is only one second, although it was so many hours. So where's the consciousness or where is the Self? And what is the difference between the two?) Consciousness permeates everything and when you are a Jnani you are aware of the dreamless state, you're in the dreamless state but you are aware of it. The ordinary is person is consciousness when they're asleep and dreamless sleep they're not aware of it, that's the only difference. (SN: Oh so it's just a matter of levels?) Levels, it's a matter of levels of enlightenment. (SN: So a Jnani is conscious during dream, dreamless sleep.) A Jnani is always in dreamless sleep but is aware of it. (SN: So even when he's asleep he's conscious he's aware?) Yes. (SN: But a person that isn't a Jnani, when he's in deep sleep, isn't aware?) He's not aware. SG: It's difficult for me to comprehend awareness without subject/object, without something to be aware of. R: Here's an example: You take a baby. The baby is asleep, but the mother gives the baby a bottle and the baby sucks on the bottle, but is not aware of it because it’s asleep, but yet it's sucking on the bottle. So in dreamless sleep you're not aware of what you're doing, but you're pure consciousness. So when you become self-realized, you're pure consciousness but you're aware of it. You're awake! That's the difference. SN: So basically we're all asleep and it's not until we become awake that we can be aware during dreamless sleep? (R: That's right.) ST: So what do the dreams mean? Is there something in consciousness that it talks about? When I had a dream about doing something and woke up, why did I dream about that when I can do that? R: Dreams are part of the relative world. (ST: They are a part of the relative world?) They have to do with your experiences in life. They’re a part of it. (ST: What if you dream about something that we fear?) Dreams are simply images that come because of your past experiences. In other words if you were brought up frightened, and you fear things, you will dream fearful dreams about things that never happened but they'll be fearful because you created this in your dream mind. SD: Are you saying that they are part of the earth plane existence? (R: Yes.) If you awaken would you still dream? R: You can't dream when you're awake you can only dream when you're asleep. (SD: So a Jnani never has dreams, right?) No a Jnani has dreams sometimes. But the dreams are meaningless most of the time. (SD: Dreams are meaningless?) Yes, don't pay too much attention to dreams. (ST: Why do they happen then?) Because of your state of affairs. It vents emotions. It gets rid of temper tantrums, emotions. (SD: So they have meaning in that sense right? To keep us from acting out some of these things during the day?) Yes, it's a release of energy. ST: But what if you wake up and you've had that sort of dream that wasn’t pleasant and when you wake up it affects your mood? R: Then change your mood. (ST: I mean is that possible?) Simply realize it's a dream and ask yourself, "Who had the dream?" Again it's your ego that dreams. It's your ego that dreams not your Self. It's a third person looking at it. So you don't give too much power to dreams. A lot of people make a lot of things out of dreams. (tape ends) [TOC]