4.The Four Principles of Self Realization -Robert Adams

Transcript 4 The Four Principles of Self Realization of Noble Wisdom 19th August, 1990 Robert: I want to let you in on a little secret. There are no problems. There are no problems. There never were any problems, there are no problems today, and there will never be any problems. Problems just mean that the world isn't turning the way you want it to. But in truth, there are no problems. Everything is unfolding as it should. Everything is right. You have to forget about yourself and expand your consciousness until you become the whole universe. The reality in back of the universe is pure awareness. It has no problems. And you are that. If you identify with your body, then there's a problem, because your body always gets into trouble of some kind. But if you learn to forget about your body and your mind, where is there a problem? In other words, leave your body alone. Take just enough care of it. Exercise it a little, feed it right foods, but don't think about it too much. Keep your mind on reality. Merge your mind with reality, and you will experience reality. You will live in a world without problems. The world may appear to have problems to others, but not to you. You will see things differently, from a higher point of view. I had an interesting phone call this week. Someone asked me, "Do self-realized people dream, or have visions?" Now, in order to have a dream or a vision, there has to be somebody left to have it, and yet if you're self-realized, there's nobody home. There's nobody left. So it's a contradiction, as truth is. All truth is a contradiction, it's a paradox. The answer is, Sages do dream sometimes, and have visions. But they're aware of the dreamer. In other words they realize that they are not the person dreaming or having the vision. But as long as there's a body there someplace, there will be dreams and visions. Even though there's no one home, there will still, once in a while, be a dream or a vision. As an example, Ramana Maharshi often dreamt and had visions. Nisargadatta dreamt and had visions. And they were both self-realized. But again, the question is, who dreams, who has the vision? There's no ego left, as long as the dreamer is separate from the I. I can only speak from my own experience. There's no difference, to me, in the waking state, the dreaming state, the sleeping state, or the vision state. They're all the same. I'm aware of all of them, but I am not them. I observe them. I see them happening. As a matter of fact, sometimes I don't know the difference. Sometimes I don't know whether I'm dreaming, or awake, or having a vision, or I'm asleep. It's all the same, because I take a step backward, and I watch myself going through all these things. So, for some reason, lately, I've been dreaming about the Queen of England. She was coming to satsang. I don't know why... for about three nights in a row. But I did have an interesting vision this morning at about four o'clock, and we'll spend the rest of the time discussing them, because I found it very interesting. As many of you know, I have had a constant vision, periodically, of myself going to Arunachala, the sacred mountain where Ramana Maharshi lived. And the mountain is hollow, in the vision. And I go through the mountain, to the center, where there's a bright light, a thousand times more brighter than the sun, but yet it's pleasing and calm, and there's no heat. And then I meet Ramana, Jesus, Rama Krishna, Nisargadatta, Lao Tse, and others. And we smile at each other, we walk toward each other, and melt into one light, and become one. Then there's a blinding light and an explosion, sort of. And then I open my eyes. I've shared that with you before. But this morning, for the first time, I had a very interesting vision, which I'll share with you again. I dreamt I was somewhere in an open field, beautiful field. There was a lake nearby, trees, a forest. And I was sitting under a tree, in this open field. And I had on the orange garb of a renunciate. I must have been Buddhist. All of a sudden hundreds of bodhisattvas and mahasattvas come from the forest and start walking toward me. And they all sit down in a semi-circle around me, in meditation and I wondered what I was doing. Then I realized that I had become the Buddha. And we all sat in silence for about three hours. Then one of the bodhisattvas got up and asked a question. He said, "Master, what is your teaching?" It was not in English. I don't know what language he spoke. But I understood quite clearly. And without hesitation I said, "I teach Self Realization of Noble Wisdom.” And he sat down. We sat for about another three hours in silence, and then another bodhisattva got up and asked a question. "Master, how can you tell when one is close to selfrealization? How can you tell when one is about to become self-realized? How does one tell?" And this is what I'd like to discuss today. How can we tell if we're on the path correctly? I gave four principles, which I really never do in the waking state. I never have a teaching. But I was giving a teaching, so I'll share it with you. I explained four principles, where you know that you're close to self-realization. Of course, we're all self-realized already. Principle number one: You have a feeling, complete understanding that everything you see, everything in the universe, in the world, emanates from your mind. In other words, you feel this. You do not have to think about it, or try to bring it on. It comes by itself. It becomes a part of you. The realization that everything that you see, the universe, people, worms, insects, the mineral kingdom, the vegetable kingdom, your body, your mind, everything that appears, is a manifestation of your mind. You have to have that feeling, that deep understanding, without trying to. So you ask yourself, "What do I think about all day long?" Of course, if you fear something, if you worry, if you believe something is wrong somewhere, if you think you're suffering from lack, or limitation, or sickness or anything, then you're out of it completely, because you're not understanding that all these things are simply a manifestation of your own mind. And if you worry about these things you become attached to false imagination. It's called false imagination. You've been attached to habit energy for many years, and all these attachments and beliefs come from habit energy. It's like watching a TV show and becoming one of the characters, when you know that you're not even in the TV. But you believe you're one of the characters in the TV show. So it is with the world. Do not get involved. I don't mean you become passive. I mean your body does what it's supposed to do. Remember, your body came to this earth to do something. It will do something without your knowledge. It'll take care of itself, don't worry. But do not identify your body with your Self. They're different. Your body is not your Self. And I'll prove this. When you refer to your body what do you say? Don't you say, "My body?" Who is this "my" you're referring to? You say, "My finger,” "my eye.” Who are you referring to? You couldn't be talking about your body, because you’re saying it's my body, like you own it. Who owns it? This proves to yourself that you're not your body. So do not identify your Self with the body and the world. Therefore the first principle, to see how close you are to self-realization is: You are not feeling that you are identifying with the world. You're separate and you're feeling happiness, because your natural state is pure happiness. Once you identify with worldly things, you spoil it. The happiness disappears, it dissipates. But when you're separate from worldly things happiness is automatic, beautiful, pure happiness. It comes by itself. So that's the first principle. The second principle I explained to the bodhisattvas was this: You have to have a strong feeling, a deep realization, that you are unborn. You are not born, you do not experience a life, and you do not disappear, you do not die. You are not born, you have no life, and you do not die. You have to feel this, that you are of the unborn. Do you realize what this means? There is no cause for your existence. There is no cause for your suffering. There is no cause for your problems. Some of you still believe in cause and effect. This is true in the relative world, but in the world of reality there is no cause. Nothing has ever been made. Nothing has ever been created. There is no creation. I know it's hard to comprehend. How do I exist if I was not born, I have no life and I do not disappear in old age? You exist as I-am. You have always existed and you will always exist. You exist as pure intelligence, as absolute reality. That is your true nature. You exist as sat-chit-ananda. You exist as bliss consciousness, but you do exist. You exist as emptiness, as nirvana, but you do exist. So don't worry about being non­-existent. But you do not exist as the body. You do not exist as person, place or thing. Do you feel that? If you have a strong feeling about that, then you're close to selfrealization. Principle number three: You are aware and you have a deep understanding of the egoless-ness of all things, that everything has no ego. I'm not only speaking of sentient beings. I'm speaking of the mineral kingdom, the vegetable kingdom, the animal kingdom, the human kingdom. Nothing has an ego. There is no ego. And do you realize what this means? It means that everything is sacred. Everything is God. Only when the ego comes, does God disappear, what we call "God." Everything becomes God. You have reverence for everything. When there is no ego, you have reverence for everybody and everything. So you have to be aware of the egoless-ness of all things. Animals have no ego, minerals have no ego, vegetables have no ego, and humans have no ego. There is no cause, so there cannot be an effect. There is only divine consciousness, and everything becomes divine consciousness. So if you look at your fellow man and animals and everything else as being egoless-ness, you will see them as your Self. Can't you see that? It's the ego that causes separation. When I am full of ego, I become strong within myself. I become totally separate. So the more you like yourself as a person, the bigger your ego is. You say, "Well, I'm not supposed to like myself?” You're supposed to love yourself, but what self are we talking about? We're not talking about your body-self, because that comes and goes. We're talking about your permanent Self that has always been here. And your permanent Self is me, is you, is the world, is the universe, is everything, that's your permanent Self, egoless-ness. That's the only time that you can love your fellow human beings, when you have no ego. That's how you can tell where you're at, if you're close to self-realization. That's principle number three. Principle number four is simply this: You have a deep conviction, a deep understanding, a deep feeling of what self-realization of noble wisdom really is. What is Self Realization of Noble Wisdom to you? You can never know by trying to find out what it is, because it’s absolute reality. You can only know by finding out what it is not. So you say, “It is not my body, it is not my mind, it is not my organs, it is not my thoughts, it is not my world, it is not my universe, it is not the animals, or the trees, or the moon, or the sun, or the stars, it is not any of those things." When you've gone through everything and there's nothing left, that's what it is, nothing, emptiness, nirvana, ultimate oneness. Anyway, I explained these four principles to all the bodhisattvas and all the mahasattvas. Then we sat three hours in meditation and they got up and walked back into the forest. Then there was a flash of light, and I opened my eyes. What do you think of that? Any questions? SD: Was it a dream or a vision, and how do you distinguish between the two? R: Well, I don't really know, to tell you the truth. I'm usually aware of what's going on, so all the time I was aware of the vision/dream taking place. (SD: Including this time?) Yes, I realized I was doing all these things. It was like I was watching everything taking place. But there was never a time when I actually became the dream or the vision. (SD: Or felt totally caught up in it? You always observed it.) Right, I was always observing. But it was like an omnipresent observer. So that's the teaching, that's how you tell when you're getting close to self-realization. So, do you remember the four principles? Glen why don't you repeat them for George because he came late? (SG: I don't think I remember the four.) I think they're very important to remember. Which ones do you remember? (SG: That the second principle is that all things are egoless.) No that's the third one. (laughs) Sam how about you? What's the first one? SM: Stop identifying... (R: See how easy we forget?) (More guessing) SD: Everything emanates from the mind? R: That's right. That the whole universe is a manifestation of the mind, everything. You've got to feel that and know it's true. SS: As long as we're identified with the body or the mind, then we're not very far off. R: Exactly. You're part of the world. (SS: How do we say that in short sentencing?) The basic one? (SS: The first one?) The first one is that everything, and I mean everything, the mineral kingdom, the vegetable kingdom, the animal kingdom, the human kingdom, everything your senses show you, is an emanation of the mind. You're projecting a picture, just like you project a moving picture, and everything you see right now, in this room, comes from your mind. You may say, "How can we collectively see the same thing?” That's because of the habit energy that we're brought up in. So collectively we seem to be seeing the same thing, the same picture. That's number one. What's number two? Who can tell me? Do you remember Ben? (Students try to remember.) SN: We're not regarded, we're just nothing? R: We're just nothing? Doesn’t sound too good (laughs) (SN: We're not born and no one dies?) That's right, but there's something in-between. We're not born. We have no existence. In between the time we're born and when we die we really have no existence. And we do not die. There's no disappearance. SD: So how would you summarize it? That we are non-existence, or that we have no beginning and no end? (R: Both are right. We have no cause.) SM: So you're saying that existence implies a relative cause... (R: Yes.) ...and existence only takes place in the relative world... (R: Yes.) ...and we're not really a part of it? (R: Exactly.) SN: And non-existence? (R: Non-existence also does not exist.) ST: But then couldn't you say the mind doesn't exist. I mean you say that everything that exists... (R: Nothing that you can explain exists.) But earlier you said that everything emanates from the mind. So how can you say it? (R: Yes, because you're projecting the picture.) But then you have a mind. (R: You don't have a mind.) SD: I think he means everything in the earth plane world. R: In the relative world. In reality there's no mind. That's how the picture appears. The mind projects the whole universe. So if you get rid of the mind, there's no universe. We have to kill the mind and the whole universe is annihilated, because it's the mind that projects the universe, and tells us all these stories. Think, for a moment, of all the problems that you believe you have. Think of what's bothering you. You can tell me your story for four hours. This is wrong and that's wrong. It's all a projection of the mind. So by getting rid of the mind, everything stops, and beauty, and joy and bliss ensue. But you're covering the beauty, and joy and bliss when you worry, when you fear, when you think something is wrong someplace. So that's precept number two. What's number three? Who can tell me? SN: Egoless. R: Right, everything is egoless. Not only human beings, but everything, mountains, trees, the sun, nothing has an ego. That means it has no existence. So where did it come from? When you have a dream, where does the dream come from? Same place, from nowhere, from false imagination. SD: I don't understand the expression "false imagination,” because the word imagination implies a certain falsity. R: We're imagining a false world and a false ego. (SD: That's sort of a paradoxical saying.) Sure, it's all paradox, because it doesn't exist. But that's how we imagine it. This is the reason I always go back to the sky is blue. Somebody takes me outside and says, "Look at the beautiful blue sky.” And I agree with them, but I know deep inside that that's not true. There's no sky and there's no blue, it doesn't exist. Or the oasis in the desert, the water, it doesn't exist, it's a mirage, the world's the same thing. The universe only exists in the dreaming state. It's like a dream. Now what's the fourth precept? What's number four? ST: It has something to do with we are nothing. R: (laughs) Well everything has to do with that. But it's actually to have an understanding, and a deep realization, of what Self Realization of Noble Wisdom is. SD: And how is noble wisdom defined from regular wisdom? R: It's not, it's the same thing, just more wordy. It's a Buddhist expression. ST: They have all these real long expressions. And then they always say what it is. They call it as it is rather than give a name to it. R: The eight-fold path and then they take years explaining it. But when you get into the highest teaching there's nothing. (ST: So would you go through the fourth one again?) The fourth one, the only way to know what self-realization is, is by knowing what it is not. And whatever is left, that's what it is. (SD: And that's noble wisdom?) Same thing. So you say it's not the body, it's not the mind, it's not my organs, it's not my thoughts, it's not the world, it's not the sun, it's not the universe, it's not God, it's not creation, and you go on, and on and on. When you get out of breath and out of words, that's it. SD: Is that what the expression, "Neti-neti" means? (R: Not this, not this, yes.) SN: It's sort of like nowhere, nowhere, if you spilt the two words there is no where. SS: Is it boring though? If all that goes away and there is nothing? R: (laughs) No! See, that's what people think. That's why I explained before, the mind will make you say that because it doesn't want to be annihilated. It wants to rule you and control you completely, because that's its nature. That's the nature of the mind that doesn't exist. SD: It sounds like the survival instinct. The ego wants to survive. (R: The ego wants to survive, of course.) Survival instinct. (R: Exactly.) ST: When you're meditating, are you totally separate from this physical world and everything? R: When who's meditating? When I'm meditating personally? (ST: Umm-hmm.) Well, I don't usually meditate. I sit sometimes with my eyes closed but that is just to rest my eyelids. (laughter) SD: Because there's no one there, right? There's no one to meditate. R: There has to be someone to meditate. (SD: (Student talks to other student with question) He feels that he is no thing, nothing. So while you're self-realized you need to know that what would they meditate about?) That doesn't mean you should stop meditating. It means you should look at these four principles and compare them to where you are yourself, and work on yourself so that you can apply these principles to yourself everyday, until the day comes when you don't have to talk about them any longer. You just become a total manifestation of those principles. SS: Work on them but you don't make effort ever? That's what I find... R: You just realize. You become aware of. (SS: You can do mind games with that too. There is a principle and say, "Okay I'm not going to look at things and identify with them." I don't know if that's a way to start?) No, you don't start like that. You start by mindfulness. (SS: By what?) By mindfulness, by being aware of all your actions from the moment you get out of bed in the morning. (SD: Or observing yourself.) Observing yourself. Like, what are the first thoughts you think about when you open your eyes? It doesn't matter, but you just watch. Don't try to change them, that's when your mind will fight you. And that is when the games begin that you're talking about. But if you make no effort to change anything and you just watch that will kill it. SD: So self-observation and mindfulness are the same thing? (R: Yes.) ST: Another thing this man also taught me about, when you talk about just watching everything? He also talked about accepting everything. R: The same thing, yes. You don't fight, you don't try to change. But I don't like to use the word accepting because if some horrid thought comes to you, why should you accept it? You don't accept it and you don't reject it. You just watch it. (SS: So it's like when you were having visions or whatever you just sat and watched them?) I just watched. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. Just observe. SA: Can I make a comment about this? It leads into this. I'm caught in that area at the moment, of austerities. (R: Okay.) I've been thinking about a different approach to this. It seems to me that for example if we take advantage of a fan, and because we feel this cool air our attention is really...it comes because of our attention to the body. We all sit here and we all participate in this, and incidentally we can only participate in anything because of the positive efforts of the rest. Which says that there is a reality and that there is evolution and there is growth in that realm. So, wouldn't it be better if we declined this attention to the physical self. Wouldn't it be better if we just got rid of the fan? We wouldn't have to think it's hot, we have to cool the body. By using the fan...and of course this is only one side example, we acknowledge the reality of the body. We're acknowledging the reality of the Self because we're really concerned in this particular moment right here and now with the status of the self in the physical world. And we're emphasizing it, we're going on about it, we're developing it. Why not go the other direction? Why not turn off the fan? R: Because while you're on the path why not be comfortable? Simple as that. (SA: Okay why can't I have a rolls royce outside, it'd make me very comfortable.) Well go ahead, who said you can't? See we're not saying how to live. Living this in the world has nothing to do with it. You can be rich, you can be poor, you can be well, you can be sick. It has nothing to do with it at all, that's the point. SS: So how will this happen? R: Because your karma. If you are karmically supposed to have a rolls royce your body is going to have a rolls royce whether you like it or not. But it has nothing to do with it. SD: My feeling also is that this comes from being very sensitive to heat but if we did not have the fan on I would be more focussed on the body than I am in comfort. (SA: Yes but that's a special situation.) Well doesn't it apply to everyone that if you're comfortable you're not as distracted? (SA: I'm aware of the pleasure right now. I'm aware of...my attention has turned to my body because every time I feel the fan I feel the sensation.) SN: That's good, every time the fan goes by, that's good. SA: So the attention is toward to the transient and the physical rather than to the other... R: Then you have to work on that. If the fan were off you would be sweating, you would be thinking about that. SD: That is what I was saying. If we were uncomfortable wouldn't we be more... SA: It would be worse is what you're saying, yeah. But it's a very important point. SS: You're very hedonistic. R: They're two sides of the same coin. ST: Maybe now while we’re on our way to self-actualization. Maybe later on in our progression we will be able to sit in the room without the fan and feel comfortable. Now while we’re... R: Self-actualization is Mazlow don't talk about that. (laughter) ST: You know that is one thing I wanted to bring up. I have the hardest time with words. I wish that I could communicate without words. (R: That's good. You can) Because of right definitions and... (R: I know.) ...that was something I wanted to ask you whether you have a hard time giving us the definition of self-realization? R: Oh yes because I have to use words. That is why when you get to know me better we sit in the silence and don't say too much. And then you get a direct teaching that's silent. In the silence you get the highest teachings. But if we have to use words we have to do the best we can. So let's play some music. (Music played.) (general talk continues during prashad on different topics) R: There are three methods we use to help us on the path, so we can realize what we were talking about before. Number one is self-surrender, where we surrender completely to God, or to the Self. But that's hard to do for most people. It sounds easy, but it's not. It means that you have no life of your own. You surrender completely and totally everything to God, totally. Every part of your life goes to God. "Not my will, but thine.” that's devotion, bhakti. Again, it sounds easy to some people, but it's not when you get into it, because it means every decision that you have to make is left up to God. You give your mind to God, totally, completely and absolutely. And that leads you to selfrealization. Number two is mindfulness, which we were talking about, becoming the witness. Watching yourself continuously. Watching your thoughts. Watching your actions. Sitting in meditation and watching what goes on in your mind. Not trying to change anything or correct anything. Just observing. Becoming the witness to your thoughts in meditation, and to your actions in the waking state. And number three is the one that I advocate, self-inquiry. Asking yourself, "To whom do these troubles come? To whom does this karma come? To whom does this suffering come? It comes to me? Well, what is me? I am me. Who am I? From where did the I come from?" And following the I to its source. You can use any of those three methods, the one that suits you best. But by all means do something. Don't waste your life with frivolities. Work on yourself, if you want to become free. It doesn't mean you have to give up going to the movies, or going to work, or anything. You give nothing up. You just become aware of what you're doing. You become a conscious being. You become conscious of your actions. You become loving, compassionate, gentle to all people. You stop watching out for number one. Most of us say, "Number one. I'm number one.” Forget it. That's how you suffer, that's ego. It's hard to understand, when you give up your ego, how you can have a better life? But you do. Try it and you'll see. When you stop thinking of yourself, and you start thinking on yourself, but yourself becomes omnipresence, that means you're thinking of everybody else as yourself. So if any human being suffers, you suffer too. But in a way we differ from Buddhism, not much, but a little. Because the bodhisattva says he will not be realized until everybody else is realized. But then they have a higher bodhisattva called the Arhat. It's like the Avadhut in Hinduism, who becomes self-realized, by himself, because he understands that his Self is the Self of all. And that's what we accept. In other words, if you want to help your fellow man, if you want to make this world a better world in which to live, find yourself first, and everything else will take care of itself. Any questions about that? SF: You mention about the, self-observing or observing your thoughts... (R: Yea.) Isn't it the same thought just mixed into observer and observed or same...? R: Only when you give it power, only when you think you're doing it. But when you just stop and watch, there is no action taking place, there's nothing moving. (SD: Isn't watching an action?) But you're not watching just observing, watching, but you're not. You're not, but something is but it's not you. Only when you think I'm watching the problem arises. SS: Isn't that the voice that says, "To whom does the suffering come?" SD: Yeah it would be the same. (R: Yeah, same thing, yes.) SS: Because I've been watching that voice, because if you feel a calm after that, or something starts to dissolve, then you start doing that... R: Well actually what you're doing is you're using the mind to annihilate the mind. (SS: But you're not identifying with it?) You don't identify with it, but you're using the mind when you say, "To whom does this come? (SS: That's not the Self is it?) It's the mind. (SS: It's still the mind.) But you're using it to get rid of the mind. (SS: It's becoming more one pointed so that you can dissolve.) Yes. Only when you think that it's you, is there any Karma or action. SF: So in the mature phase of observing thoughts there will be a point in which there's no awareness of observing? (R: There's no awareness, no.) Observing, and things are being observed without somebody being aware of observing and that's the mature phase of observing? (R: Exactly, yes.) SS: That's difficult to do, when you first start observing, to say that, "To whom does this come?" and sometimes you feel a sense of it dissolving or whatever and at other times the body is real strong. (R: Of course it is. So you try something else.) Well, okay then we'll fix this... (laughs) R: You just try to ask yourself, or you watch yourself or you surrender. You can tell yourself, "Okay God take this from me, I give it all to you". That's a total surrender to God, give it all to God, give it away. (SS: And if that's the thing that I don't want to go.) But that's what you have to do. (SS: If you're having pain or something and you're say, "Take it away?") Give it to God say, "Take it, take it God it's yours, I've got nothing to do with it". You have to do what you have to do, depending on where you're at in consciousness, but by all means do something, or you could just sit down and do nothing, that helps too. SD: I think letting go is the same as just like taking control of yourself, just a little easier, with a little difference. SS: What about sleeping? (R: What about it?) If you're feeling certain feelings and then you go, "I'm just going to lie down." R: Then you have to do that, that's what you do. (SS: Is that similar to letting go too?) In a way. (SS: I fight that, you know. I don't like that.) Don't fight anything. It gives you another chance to relax and when you wake up you can start again. ST: Sometimes though it seems that when they have problems and they seem to go to sleep and go to sleep and go to sleep. (SD: Yeah, it can be an actual depression.) R: Well, those are people who are not working on themselves, but those of us here realize... SS: You can be observing that in yourself that you're fighting in your sleep, even though it's really what I want to do, but maybe something's telling me, maybe that's what you need to do and let go and don't fight the sleep. R: That's why I say, don't fight anything, just go to sleep and when you wake up start again where you left off. (SS: I have felt sometimes worse when I woke up. So that's why I avoid sleep.) SD: Because you're using it as an escape. SS: No, legitimately I felt very, like I just couldn't... Like I'm just sitting here, "why don't you just let yourself go to sleep, okay I'll just let myself go to sleep," and I go to sleep and I wake up and it'd take me about an hour or two to bring me back... R: Now from this moment on, how will you react when you wake up and you feel better? (SS: Detach from it?) Observe it, watch it, even if you're feeling bad, no matter how bad you're feeling. (SS: Don't fear? I get fears, see that's what happens like, "So what does this mean?" See I start questioning. See that what happens and I'll question "Now why does happen?") You may ask, "To whom does it come?" But observe it, watch it, let yourself be fearful don't try to change it. SK: Watch yourself fearing? (R: Just be observant of what's going on.) (students discuss different ways with other students) SA: I would say that today my mind is full of heresy. (laughter all round). Today it's very difficult to let go of the idea in the Bible that, "I am the vine, ye are the branches". That the great drama of realization is being lived out in each differently, in each human being and at that living out, that drama is important! (R: In the relative world.) I can't accept that today. (R: Don't!) (laughter) My feeling is, you could say that, the divine being, or God should I say so, that it thrills to the individual drama, the individual adventure. (R: In the relative world that's true.) I was going to, Robert ask about this, my understanding, I don't know if it comes to the same point? I was wondering, isn't it self surrendering, self surrender isn't it...for instance to decide to live of course always within the context of devotion to God, try to live as one lives with all your demons, all your evil deeds, everything, and take life as it comes and accept it. Of course knowing that con sequences are coming from action and the action will come and accepting everything. I understand that if devotion is strong, things will start moving little by little, going to showing up as beautiful, or, better integrated being and maybe the beginnings of self-realized. In other words if there is devotion, self surrender, no matter what you do, things will take care of itself. R: Exactly, that's very true. If you surrender to God, you don't have to worry about your life again. SF: I mean you don't have to be compulsively observing of the egoic drive or...? R: Not if you surrender to God correctly. (SF: Because you could be acting for instance, from another observer but you keep pursuing that devotion and surrendering even when you look for observers, outside observers...) It's like when you, imagine you have a pail of dirty water, scummy water. It's been standing for years and the water's very dirty. But there's a hole in the roof and every time it rains a drop comes in and it starts clearing the water. Maybe after twenty years the water will dissipate and will be clean. That's what happens to us. The more we surrender as you say, the more pure we become, little by little, by little, by little and everything will take care of itself, if you surrender, properly. SD: Isn't that bhakti, isn't that what you were talking about the different methods that we use? (R: Yes.) More or less the same as devotional bhakti? As opposed to self observation. (R: Yes.) As opposed to self-inquiry? (R: Yes.) SN: Horat mentioned acceptance, and also Dana mentioned acceptance, and Robert said earlier, "Don't accept, just watch," because when you accept there's someone to accept. Just watch, because when you accept, it sounds like you're affirming your ego again, just watch. So acceptance is good but you can also just watch. (SD: Yeah, watch without judgment.) Maybe it's just words again. And also Arnold's comments on God and the vine and the tree and the branches, and Robert said, "Well that's just the relative world," and that's kind of like subject/object again. And in the book Ramana said, "As long as you believe that you are the self then there is a God. So it's kind of like going from non-duality into duality. So if you're dealing on the level of duality, what you're saying is true, but when you go into non-duality then there are different principles. So Arnold says, "This week I'm into non-duality, next week I'm into duality, I don't know if that would help Arnold. Do you see what I'm saying? SA: I know what you're saying. SN: As long as you believe that you're the self then there is a God then those principles apply. But then if you go into non-duality then you are God. So there are different principles, you know, you don't use the analogy of the tree and branches because you are the tree and you are the branches. (SF: What you mean to ask was just like saying that God is saying there is a good time, good play going on, why get rid of it?) (laughter) Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's so wise. (laughter) SA: Not exactly, God is saying that because of his play, when the play is over, I am the play, it's true, but when the play is over, I will know more about myself. I will be in a different spot from when the play began, because of the play and all the participants in the play. And through the participants, through the actors having lived in each of the actors, I will be in a different place afterwards. Robert Adams: The Collected Works R: Yes but you'll have to come back again and play another role, again and again and again. (SS: Because we're still identified with an actor?) That's what they mean in Buddhism, getting off the wheel. You want to get off the wheel. From turning around, keep turning around, again and again and again. We want to get off. SA: But what if God is standing and watching this and knows that he is in a sense, his projections are part of it but his essence is apart from the play? But even that essence which is a part will be in some way changed. I will not be on the wheel because it never was on the wheel. R: But as long as you believe in duality you are on the wheel. As long as you are approaching a God outside of yourself, you're on the wheel. SS: I have a question, what you were referring to when we talked surrender to God, accepting a God outside of yourself and yet that's where...with the devotion thing because I feel like I'm...I mean with all three of these, you can say, you can pick one of these, or you can use all three of these. (R: Sure.) Where actually they're not in conflict? (R: No they're not.) That to talk about God and if you surrender to God it sounds like outside yourself. (R: That's how it sounds, yes.) How can we surrender to God and be full of light, because I have a certain part of me that has this devotional part, but I also have a part that is more of the knowledge part too, you know. (R: Umm.) But I like both, I like the combination, I want the combination play. So how do I...I do go to my knees with "Oh God your beautiful" you know. Now when I hear that I can feel it in my being, I don't think of it as some man out there with a beard out there, I do feel it in here. In the matter of surrender how can we do that without making separation? R: Simply surrender to yourself. That's all. (SS: We don't, at this point, we don't really know it, because we haven't realized it.) So where's the God you want to surrender to? Where does he live? (SS: He's in here, well I don't really know?) It all has to do with your own mind. You talk to yourself, you surrender to your Self. You have to reconcile yourself with your Self. (SS: So it's passed the ego, it's passed the mind, and surrender to that?) You can be very humble and have a lot of humility and talk to God, but realize you're talking to your Self. SD: I don't know about you but it seems like surrendering is dualistic. R: It seems that way. But you can keep it like that if you like. SS: It will go away after a while anyway, huh? R: If it doesn't you'll still feel great. If you surrender totally, like Rama Krishna. He never wanted to become one with God, he wanted to worship Kali. Which was an image of God and he did so all of his life, but in his own way he was self-realized. In his own way. But he never separated God from himself. (SS: He was after surrendering to Kali, but he never did.) He never did. He was unique. (SS: But did he go back on the wheel then or not?) Well he was totally free, because he became one with Kali, he merged with Kali, which is God. (SS: Because I have tapes at home and I like to listen to them and I like to go, "Well is that in conflict with..." or this is a different path and I say, "well this is in conflict with this, or this is separation, or this is duality?") See you make it a conflict in your own mind. There is no conflict. (SS: Just love it and enjoy it?) Exactly, there is no conflict except what you imagine. That's what is called false imagination. You imagine that there's conflict so there's conflict. But there isn't any. It's all one. SD: Like when you hear, "Oh God beautiful" you should have known that you are, because you're the Self. It's just a knowing, a way of just describing that, whatever that is. (SS: Yeah, you don't have to say it and even though that's some words or something about it.) But you know it's you, even that is dualism. SF: Robert isn't inquiry a tremendous surrender? (R: Tremendous what?) Surrendering. R: Oh yes. (SF: Utmost surrendering. In order to go through that it's so...) Devotion turns into self-inquiry, pure devotion. (SF: Or even when you go to self-inquiry intensely you are really surrendering the ego?) You are yes. Exactly, they're all the same. SS: It's still devotional when you do that, I have a feeling of devotion or surrender when... R: There are different paths to the summit of the mountain, but they all lead to the same summit. (SS: They're what?) There are many paths that go to the top of the mountain, but they all get to the top. So you can use any path that appeals to you. SA: Robert why is this teaching which is essentially eastern mysticism as I understand it. Why is it dying out through out Asia? it certainly appears to be? R: Truth never dies out. I don't know what you mean by dying out. SA: Well you look at countries like India, Japan, where Buddhism and Hinduism had very strong holds and now you see that these teachings are practiced by, from what I understand, by very few, fewer and fewer people all the time. Then we hear of tremendous growth in Bombay, the land in Bombay costs more than New York. The Indians are good businessmen, so you tell me. It's all becoming extremely Westernized. R: It's the way of the world, it goes up and it goes down, goes up and it goes down. It's been like that since the beginning of time. But you're looking at the world. Look to your Self, don't worry about the world. The world has been destroyed numerous times, and was built again. We have had many civilizations on this earth. (SA: That we don't know about?) We don't know about, throughout the billions of years of existence. We can't think about those things because they're passed our mind. We have to know who we are, then we'll know everything else. So we shouldn't concern ourselves with history too much, or get involved in the world situation too much, because it can pull you into it, but rather we should work on ourselves and then everything will take care of itself. SS: Don't things change though as your consciousness is raised, do you become less interested in certain things? R: Well naturally, just like when you were a little girl, you dropped stuff and now you're interested in other things. SS: Will I becoming antisocial or like you're invited to a wedding and I look at it and I'm going, "okay, if I go to the wedding and I get home I'm glad that's over..." R: You become selective, there's nothing wrong with that. SS: But I don't want them to think that I don't care about going to their sisters wedding and now I'm going to their wedding. But it didn't matter to me that I went to the wedding. I just didn't have a whole lot of interest in it. R: But are you happy? SS: When I was there I was there. When I went to the wedding, I was mindful I was at the wedding. I didn't sit there and go, "I can't wait to get home." I wasn't complaining or anything. But I could have been just as happy being at home and I learnt more out of somewhat obligation or you know families going to be there so I ought to be there. Then there's the persona that comes in and says that I might miss out on something...you know that sort of thing. R: There's nothing wrong with that, that's good, whether you miss out or don't miss out. (SS: No it doesn't matter.) I go to a lot of functions, but wherever I am is fine. (SS: But you're still active about it? I mean you don't have obligations?) I'm not normally selective about anything, everything just happens. (SS: But you don't accept everything.) See I'm not worried, I don't think about all these things. Whether I'm selective or non selective or whether I'm this or I'm that. I just am, and whatever happens happens. SD: So you're the same wherever you are? (R: Whatever I do.) SA: What if I called you at 2 o'clock Sunday afternoon and said, "There's a good movie Bob, I'd like you to go, it's going to last for hours," and we all assemble here, so that means you are selective. (R: Why?) You made it a point to be here. (R: I made it a point to be here?) Yeah! (R: You mean I can't come because you went to a movie.) No what I'm saying is if that option had come up. (R: Oh I see.) You would've had to say no. Apparently you do say no to other things because you are here every Sunday. (R: Oh of course, but it's not being selective, it's a way of life.) SD: You can't be at two places at once. R: It's a way of life. I don't think about it, I just do it. SG: You don't have to be selective or non-selective. It doesn't matter, you can be selective or non-selective. (SN: There has to be a you to be selective.) Yeah, so you don't have to say, "I'm non-selective." R: I know it's difficult to understand, but I don't make a decision, I just do what has to be done. There's no thought, there's no thought process. If somebody says, "You want to go to a movie?" I'll say, "No I'm going to a meeting," and I forget about it. SA: It's the best way to be. (SD: So there's no moment of indecision or...?) R: There is no energy. SS: Should I go to the wedding now or care if I go to the wedding or should I not go to the wedding and you go back and forth. But if you still the mind... R: If you don't try to decide at all, you'll make the right decision. SA: For you it is. She's a good example of the importance of being selective. It really takes a lot of process of selection and determination to be here in the first place otherwise you wouldn't, or couldn't be here. (SS: I had to do that a bit today yeah.) You would have to do it everyday to go through what you go through. R: If you're here six months from now you won't have to do it anymore. (laughter) SS: After today I don't know. The body was hankering at me, you know, "Why don't you take a shower," that will zip me up sometimes, so I say, "okay I'll go try that," accept I just kept on going, I just tried not to think about anything. (SA: But you had a focus.) Took a shower, ate, got in the car and then got here. (SA: Then you got here.) But I don't like the going back and forth part. R: That's what you have to do now, but it will change. SG: A simple analogy is when you say, you need the fan and you don't need the fan on or also when you're turning the fan off and trying not to be the body. You're also going on one side of the pole as well. So the fan could be on or could be off and it shouldn't matter. Because you're also making a conscious process not to be a body by choosing one particular pole, a lack of something, or having something or not having something. SA: Theoretically that makes sense, but that's why I brought up the term austerity, but when you give solace and joy and comforts to the body, you encourage the body to want more. So you are feeding... (SG: Well that's two sides of the same pole.) ...because are you saying then... (SG: It's the same as austerities.) It's not the same. If we sat here without the fan and you're sweating. Our bodies would not desire to sweat more and have more heat, but we do desire to be cooler and feel more pleasant. (SG: But you could also turn it the other way and say, "By feeling more pleasant I have to pay more attention not to feel pleasant.") SS: Yeah, they're two sides of the same coin. SA: But that was the entire reason for austerities all over the world whether Christianity, or Hinduism or Buddhism because of those reasons, because the fan is encouraging the body. It is encouraging all of us to want, to want pleasure and more joy for the body. SG: But that's like saying that it's better to be a monk. It's quicker to be on a spiritual plane by being a monk then being a playboy, let's say or being in a situation as a playboy. But on the other side, by being in the world with all those things around you, you can also, it's the same pull... SA: Perhaps it's true for some people. I know it is. The other point is a very important point to consider. SN: Even in austerity, "Who is austere?" It's still the self, the self is gaining all these, it's still the ego. So it's the ego that runs after things and it's the ego that runs away from things, but it's still the ego, so there's no difference. SA: To some extent while you're in the body, attention must be paid to these things. It's all a razors edge, but because we are here in a three dimensional world, to just constantly fall back on that idea, leads to problems because we must maintain the physical body. R: Who says you won't? Who is to say you won't? If you're practicing spiritual sadhana your body will take care of itself, you will take care of it. That's it SS: I mean you will be aware of it but you'll just walk over to there and you're not going to go, oh this is making me feel better and it is giving me comfort, you won't go through all those processes. R: That's it, exactly! (Students talking between themselves over each other.) SS: Well there is nothing wrong to be in this musical and to enjoy it, did you say that? (R: Yes.) But what you're saying by enjoying it we're feeding it? But see that is another concept of mind. (R: Of course.) SD: Well I think the bottom line question would be, because Arnold brought up a good point that throughout history there have been austerities, are austerities necessary? R: They are necessary as long as they are there, but when you wake up they're gone. SD: So it would more or less be a matter of karma whether you are austere or not? R: Your body is karmic. It came to this earth for a certain purpose and it's going to accomplish that purpose whether you like it or not. It has nothing to do with you. SD: So that will be either you live in austerity or not that would be your karma or not... (R: Exactly.) ...and it affects realization. R: If it was your karma you would have been born in Cambodia or Vietnam. SA: How about Paris? (laughter) Let's talk about Paris. R: Paris? The French riviera. (laughter) If that was your karma, Las Vegas. SS: Through detachment again, you could say, if you're sitting here and you're saying, this is totally within my body comfort, this is just total duality and you could stop your mind at that point and observe that and stop and say, "To whom does this comfort come?" SD: Yeah, and "To whom does the thoughts about it come to?" R: That's true it's all the same. SS: Or "From whence do these thoughts come?" Either one would that work out? (R: Yes.) You pose both of those, "From whence do these come?" and "To whom do this come?" (R: Makes no difference.) However I found this week and I observed making a judgement and I'm going "To whom does this judgement come?" because I felt like maybe I was making a judgement about someone, of course there's no one else out there, but I felt, "From whence does this judgement come?" instead of "To whom does this judgement come" because that's like pointing a finger. (R: Whatever turns you on.) Yeah I guess, as long as the observation is there as a means. SA: You see the problem is theoretically everybody's repeating this and it makes very good sense, I understand it as a teaching but, and I asked you about two weeks ago, I said, "It seems to me that the teaching is very dangerous," and you said, "yes it is". Your answer was, "Yes it is," and now to carry on what you're saying ... Let's take a look further, beyond the path. Let's say we go to work tomorrow as bored as hell, "To whom does this happen?" It doesn't happen to anybody, so the work...you start doing less and less at your work. To make a long story short, one thing leads to another, the first thing you find yourself out on the street... (R: But why are doing less and less?) ...And so somebody asks you and you say, "It's not happening to anybody," (R: Why are you doing less and less?) ...And you're down and down and down... R: Okay, let's go to the first premise. (SA: Yeah.) Why are you doing less and less? (SA: Why what?) Why are you doing less and less work? SD: Yeah why do you assume that you do less and less? SA: Because it's no fun and who is it happening to? There's nobody sitting at the desk anyway, so what difference does it make? (laughter) (SN: Do you know that, though?) That's something I'm practicing. Self-Inquiry tells me that there's nobody there. (SN: But that's also your mind.) SG: If you were in that state, you're not thinking that. (SS: It's just words at this point.) SN: That's like saying, "I have the same consciousness as Robert," though you don't. Theoretically that's true but we don't experience that, so it's not a reality. SA: So then we must make choices, we must be selective and we must realize that the fan is giving us pleasure and it may lead to a desire for it. R: Because that's what I said before Arnold, you've got to work on yourself. If you're in that job, if you're working on yourself correctly, you'll do more and more work, not less and less. ST: Something came to my mind when we were talking about the fan. When I came into this room my first thought was, "It's so hot," and the thing is, everybody in this room is sitting here, is any body thinking, "I've got to get out of here?" (SN: I am) (laughter) No I was going to say that, if a lot of you are thinking that, then in a way you're accepting something that even like, not wanting to work, it's like all in the mind. I mean we don't realize that it's suffering because we're just comfortable here. Yeah and at your job, if you have a job that you do and you still the mind, it’s like you just forget what it's about and you do it... SA: Most people let things out and they're just aware of it all the time, that's not true, you don't forget. (SS: Well maybe your job will change when you work on yourself?) SD: Well don't forget what you just said about, "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added to you" and I think that includes the productivity of your job. It's like what Robert said, "Focus on the Self and then see how you feel about that." SA: All of this leads back into the Western idea that there is growth and evolution, but if we concentrate on those things then to some extent then we're in a better state. If we accept the relative world and acknowledge it and really give it our attention and our energy, we're in a much better place to move on eventually to other realms. R: But the relative world changes, it's never the same. (SA: So we must change with it, that's why flexibility is important.) But then you change with it until you die and you haven't got anywhere. The whole idea is to change yourself, not the world. SD: This goes back to, "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven." Robert often says, "Do selfinquiry and then see how the world..." we're still going, "Oh my God why is the world in such a mess, why would all...in Kuwait ... yada-yada," but if we concentrate more on self-inquiry the world may look different to you. You won't know until you try. SA: It still seems very dangerous to me. SS: What do you mean when you said that Robert said that this teaching is dangerous. SA: Well he did say that, did you remember saying that? (to Robert) R: Yes, I said that. It's dangerous to new people because it gives them license to go out and do anything they want. (SS: I thought well you're preordained so...) Nothing matters. But it doesn't work like that. SA: But also it seems to be in stages, in some way it draws off energy and attention from the relative world. So that there isn't...and it's so hard to survive in the world. So that when that energy and attention is drained off in the world, you are left in kind of a limbo, and it's a bit more difficult to find yourself. (R: Who is me?) And before you know something has happened and you could be pulled under. R: Who is making that statement? Who says so? That's how you feel about it, but that's not like that at all. SA: But it reminds of a very simple cult based on "A glimpse of nothingness," by a Dutch writer who went to the Orient and began to sell books. Anyway before he left Amsterdam he discusses his quest and his spiritual desire to his father and his father says, "Yes but be careful, I knew a man who felt the same way you did and one day the embassy in Iran reported that he was found in a ditch on a country road." And that has always stayed in my mind because I mean those things are always happening to - or similar things... R: But you're working in the relative world, all this is relative. SD: In a way that's just a body that was in a ditch. SN: Well really, there are people that get involved in drugs and things like that, that end up in a ditch, not just people on a spiritual quest. There is a similar thing that happens in Hawaii, some people get into trouble there because they go into the jungle where they're growing all the dope, it's like they're looking for trouble. SA: Now that isn't true, history is full of stories of people, just the catholic tradition for example of nuns, monks, maybe a large number of them go crazy, they go psychotic. They go into the monasteries just because of their spiritual desires and yet the practices drive them out of their minds... (tape ends abruptly.) [TOC]

my confession-Robert A,

My Confession 16th August, 1990 Robert: What I teach is utter nonsense, gobbledygook. It has no meaning except to my Self. I have no teaching. It is simply my confession. It’s useless for most people because I’m not giving you direction. I’m not telling you to meditate for twelve hours a day or to stand on your head or to utter mantras, there is no instruction. There is just my personal confession, the way that I feel. Now, it does some people good for it is an invisible instruction, by just being here, by just opening your heart, something happens. So don’t listen with your head. Do not try to analyze or judge or come to any conclusions. As I always say, "Do not even believe a word I say," why should you? Who am I? I am nobody, nobody important. Listen to your own heart. I’m sort of a mirror. What you see in me is your self. Subsequently the way you feel about yourself is the way you feel about me because you're looking into the mirror. I can truthfully say that I am ultimate oneness, absolute reality, emptiness, unborn, nirvana, I am that I am. When many people read spiritual books on Advaita Vedanta or on Jnana Marga, they immediately try to act out the part and they memorize many of these quotations, sayings, they become useless. You have to go through spiritual disciplines to get to the place where you wake up. In my own experience, I had probably did these disciplines in a previous existence, for when I was very young I had felt these things. I had no idea what it was until I read the books, so reading of books confirmed my experience. And then I went to see Ramana Maharshi, for I had already felt this. There is a difference. I've got to be very careful what I say, because this path sometimes gives people license to become arrogant, obnoxious, rude. It’s just the opposite if you really have Jnana, knowledge, you show lovingkindness, mercy, compassion, joy and you express your Self as that. Many of us believe in a cause. In metaphysics we learn that there is a cause for everything. And even on the path of Jnana Marga we say there is a substratum. But that's just to explain that there is an underlying power. But in truth I tell you there is no substratum, there is no cause. There isn't any cause for anything. Since there is no cause there is no effect. What I am saying is simply this: You're always looking for a reason, for why you are like you are, why you have these habits, why you look and appear to be this way, why your kind or why your mean. You're always looking for a reason, a solution, a cause, but there is no reason, there is no cause, there's no effect, there's emptiness. Emptiness is the Self and I am That. Now when I speak of I-am, I am not referring to Robert. I am referring to omnipresence. I-am is That. Therefore when I utter I am, I’m speaking for all of us. For there is only one, ultimate oneness and we are all ultimate oneness, there is no distinction. People ask me strange questions. It's strange to me but not to them I guess. For instance someone asked me this week, "How come all the great Sages died of disease, not all of them but some of them, like Ramana died of cancer, Nisargadatta died of cancer, Jesus was hung on the cross?" And the question was, "If these people are so great, why did they suffer so?" And I can only laugh when I hear a question like this. The answer is who sees the suffering? For whom is there suffering? This is why in my predicament, people say I've got Parkinson’s disease. And they try to help me with remedies and I have to bite my lip to keep from laughing because I see perfection. Perfection is all there is, oneness, ultimate reality, there is nothing else. But you say, "But I see these people suffering, do my eyes deceive me?" And then I answer, "The sky is blue," when someone takes me outside and say, "Robert, look at the beautiful blue sky," so I agree, but I know in reality there is no sky and there is no blue! It just doesn’t exist! It’s an optical illusion – a mirage in the desert – there appears to be an oasis with water but when you get closer there is only sand. It's the same thing. Your eyes deceive you, your senses deceive you, things are not like they appear. All is well and everything is unfolding as it should. There are no mistakes. No mistakes have been made, no mistakes are being made, and no mistakes will ever be made. Everything is perfect just the way it is. Consequently when you see a condition, before you judge you have to ask yourself, "Who sees that condition? For whom is that condition?" For instance, let's take a simple example. If we all looked at this room and I asked you, "What is your impression of this room?" One person will say, "Oh I think it's lovely," another person will say, "I hate it!" Another person will say, "It's too small," somebody else will say, "It’s too big," somebody else will say, "It’s very clean," someone else will say, "It’s very dirty," that's how it is, you're seeing yourself. You're seeing nothing but yourself. The world is a reflection of your mind. The universe is an emanation of yourself. If you didn't exist there would be no universe. The universe exists because you exist. You are the universe and that's true of every so-called fact in your life. It's a fact that someone is dying and if someone dies, that's a fact but it’s not the truth. The truth is, we are all unborn. Noone was ever born. If noone was ever born how can you die? Noone was born and noone dies. Again I’m expressing my confession. That’s how it appears to me. That’s what I mean when I say, "This teaching is useless to most people," because you can't do anything with it, yet things happen, lives improve, spirituality grows, happiness ensues, bliss comes. It all happens spontaneously. Just by being present and this is what satsang is all about. By being present, without taking thought, with out manipulation, without playing mind games, without trying to improve yourself, without thinking of yourself, without thinking of others, everything good happens, all by itself. Why? Because emptiness is goodness, nirvana is absolute reality. The unborn is the Self and you are that, what else can I say. So what do you think about this. I’m open to questions. SG: I have a question: The hill that Ramana Maharshi spent his life, Arunachala, what function did that play in his enlightenment? And what function does the natural areas, the harmonies that are out there and balanced ecosystems of the world important for us to keep in touch with? R: It’s important for some people. Arunachala for some reason had a tremendous impact on Ramana’s life. Arunachala is another name for Shiva, and Ramana's family, his ancestors, were all worshipers of Shiva. So the hill called Ramana at an early age. Some mysterious power led him to the hill, that was his experience. There have been others who have walked around the hill and felt absolute nothing and it was meaningless for them. The same is true of the other places you are speaking of. For most people they mean nothing. Now what happens to most people, especially in the West, they imagine they're feeling something, it’s a mind game. It’s just like the healing shrines. You work yourself up into a frenzy and you can’t wait to get to this healing shrine. So naturally when you go there, you experience a healing. It’s not the shrine that did it, it’s yourself because you worked yourself up into a frenzy. it is your mind that caused it. And I'll relate a true story that happened in this way. In Italy, in a little town there was a healing shrine. People used to come from all over the world and they would climb the steps and get on their knees and hundreds of thousands of people were actually healed from all kinds of diseases. Now, the fathers of the town found out from some scientists that there was going to be an earthquake in that town. This article was in Time magazine in about 1967. So what the fathers decided to do, is to remove the remains of the saint who was buried underneath the shrine to another point of town where there was no earthquake. They began to dig, and low and behold no saint was ever buried there, there was nothing. They built the shrine upon nothing. What did the healing? How come all these thousands of people were healed? It’s all in the mind. When you psych yourself out mentally, you can accomplish almost anything. So again to answer your question, most of these things are meaningless. Arunachala meant a great deal to myself. I've had experiences inside Arunachala. But for most people it’s just a hill. So again the answer is this: Work on yourself, worship yourself, find yourself, find out who you are. And when you do this everything becomes Holy, and like Moses said, "The ground upon which I stand is Holy ground." Everything becomes Holy, not only certain places but everything. And that’s only because you have become that your Self. Your omnipresence makes it Holy. You have become one with all there is and you can truthfully say, "All of this is the Self and I am that." Does it make any sense? (SG: Yes) Good. (SG: In what sense is the spirit of the whole earth our mother?) Our brother? (SG: Our mother, as giving us birth to another state of being.) The earth has no power without you, you are the power and the earth is within yourself. So when you become powerful, the earth has power. When you are weak, the earth is weak. The earth like the universe is an emanation of yourself. The mother, the father, it's all within you. Everything is within your Self. There is no power outside of yourself. When you see some power happening from some place, it is because collectively people are giving it their power. But the people are the power. They misunderstand. They think the thing has power by itself. Nothing exists except yourself. Nothing exists because everything changes, nothing is ever the same. What changes, cannot be real. Take your body for instance: You didn’t always look this way. When you were conceived you were no larger than the size of a pinhead, that was you. And then you became a little baby, a teenager, an adult and now here you are. So you were never the same as you were years ago. This is true of everything. This chair used to be a piece of wood, a tree. Now it has become a chair. Everything comes from the same source, nothing. Nothing exists, except the Self. Everything is like a dream. When you have a dream, you dream you're flying an airplane, you're going to China and to Japan, then you come back here and you go to sleep. And then you wake up, it was a dream. This life is also like a dream. One day you will awaken and realize who you are and you will realize there is no power outside of your Self and even there’s no power within yourself. No power exists only the Self exists nothing else is necessary. So we make up all these games, they're all mind games. They do not lead us to self-realization, they lead us to further delusion. That’s why we're born again and again and again, until we wake up. And then reincarnation stops and then we become totally liberated and free, which we already are. SS: When you go out and deny that there's a blue sky? Do you see the blue skies? Or doesn't it make any difference. R: No, I see the blue skies but I see my Self, as the blue sky. (SS: And you enjoy it?) Sure, I enjoy my Self. I always enjoy my Self twenty-four hours a day. SD: I asked him the same thing once, what about chocolates and sunsets? And he said, "You are the sunset which you enjoy." (SS: But that's after the ego dissolves then you're able to.) Annihilate the ego. R: Let's imagine you believe you're enjoying the blue sky, then the next moment there's thunderstorms, lightning and you become frightened and you cry. What happened to your enjoyment? When you realize that you are the Self, blue skies, thunderstorms they're both the same. Nothing can hurt you. (SS: So you can enjoy both of them?) There's no one left to enjoy, you just are these things. You are bliss. You have become sat-chit-ananda – being, knowledge and bliss. That's your true nature. This is why I said in the beginning, these words are meaningless, unless you've experienced That, otherwise they don't mean anything. (SS: Yeah you kinda lost me again.) (laughs) Most people like to go to classes. Where the teachers chants mantras and gives you relative knowledge and tells you how to improve your finances and your health and your lifestyle. Those people draw thousands of followers, but of course these things don't exist. They exist for a while. You get a good feeling. You improve your life for a while but you have to go on with your life and soon you die and then where are you? No-where. (SS: That's why I go and when I do, it gives me a good feeling, there's always something missing.) It's all good when you need it, nothing is wrong with anything. (SS: I'm still going to get the good feelings and...) Yes. (SS: ...do the chanting and all that but I feel like there's something more, like I can't stop there.) Then you'll go onward. (SS: Pardon?) You'll go onward wherever you have to go. (SS: Look at discipline, sometimes I get the feeling that I'm just not very disciplined so I need to go to some place like that so I can get disciplined, like, I don't have enough of that or...?) As I said before, this path is sometimes a contradiction because it is true you need discipline, and then again you don't need discipline. There's a time when you do and a time when you don't, but, if you follow the principles involved, by asking yourself, "Who is it that needs the discipline?" You will realize that your true Self, never needed discipline but your ego does. And since you are not the ego there is no one left for discipline it all evens itself out. SD: When you refer to discipline what do you mean? What would be the definition of it? R: Well I mean not being rude to other people, not being obnoxious, being kind and loving, putting other people first, having compassion, helping others. (SD: So you're not talking about meditation or mantra's?) Well meditations and mantra's are good, but they are only to make you one-pointed, to make the mind one-pointed, so you can disintegrate the mind. SS: So it isn't important then, even now to do meditation? R: It's important for some people. Again if you can make your mind quiet then it's unnecessary, but all the spiritual discipline you are referring to, are only to quiet the mind. When the mind is quiet, everything happens by itself. When the mind is noisy the world becomes real and terrible for you. Therefore mantras quiet the mind. Meditation quiets the mind, everything leads to quietening the mind. (SS: Watching your breath?) To quiet the mind. (SS: So you don't need any fixed thing or fixed time or power of the mind to do all that?) Yet there are some people who do need that kind of discipline because that's the way they are in this life. (SS: How would you know?) It's all karmic. Your heart will tell you, what feels good, what feels right. SS: On the way out here today on the freeway today, I did that, “to whom does this state was?” or whatever and I did this on the way out here and I was just real calm. Even if I thought of like rushing, “who did this idea of time come?” You know, I mean the mind was going the whole time asking those questions yet even though it was, I didn't feel rattled or ruffled because I didn't get identified with any of the things that came up. (R: It's a great psycho-therapy.) Is that all it is though is it? (R: No, it's the highest form.) I mean it kept coming but inbetween there was some quiet because I mean as soon as something would come up, the question would be there to cancel out any dadadada, imaginings that go with it. Once you start thinking about, time in the traffic and – you know how the mind goes – so it just stopped. And another thing that it did was, it may be totally unrelated but every time I did that I could see that there was some kind of – I don't know? R: As you keep that momentum up you'll be surprised at what happens. (SS: Well I thought yeah, if you could do this all the time everything would dissolve.) Yes, you have to catch yourself. Whatever thoughts come to you, you simply ask yourself, "To whom do these thoughts come?" (SS: Even if they were good things, I did it, you know and it made those okay but I don't know how to say it.) I understand, you're doing well, that's good. (SS: I thought, gee if I could do that all the time, it would be good.) Then ask yourself, "Who needs to do it all the time?" When you do it often enough, it will begin to do you. (SS: It was kinda doing me after a while.) (laughs) It didn't feel uncomfortable, it felt very natural, a very natural place to be.) SD: It seems to detach you a little and not feel personally involved, which is great. R: It does yes. Just doing that is sufficient for most people. (SS: What's that?) Just doing what you're doing is sufficient for most people. (SS: But can you ask too many questions like that?) No, if you want to go deeper you can go deeper with that, but don't do this when you're driving your car. When you're driving your car what you did is sufficient, but when you go home then you could do it differently, you can ask yourself, for instance, if you're feeling depressed, "To whom does this come?" and then you realize it comes to you. So you say, "It comes to me, I feel this, I feel depressed, I feel terrible." Then you ask yourself, "Who is this I? From where does this I come that feels terrible?" But don't answer. Just follow it, follow the I to its source and you will realize that all of life, the relative world, is attached to I. And when the I is dissolved, everything else is dissolved with it. It happens by itself. You simply go deeper with the I, deep, deep, deep. "From where comes this I? Where does this I come from?" or "Who am I?" Whatever feels good for you and you will realize that the I comes from nowhere. It doesn't exist. It never did exist. You are free, you are bright and shining, you are the one. (SS: You're not going to sit and just contemplate your navel all day. You're still going to do your activities and all that?) Of course you are. You'll even do your activities better than you ever did before. (SS: I sometimes feel when I've gone into a yoga, I saw myself as strong.) You're having the wrong experience. The right way is to let your body do whatever it has to do. Your body came to this earth for a purpose, so-itappears, and your body is going to do whatever it came here to do, but it has nothing to do with you. SD: So is that what you mean when you say that we are not the doer? R: Exactly, you don't have to concern yourself about work or non-work, whatever you're supposed to do you're going to do, it's all preordained, just be happy SS: What happens when your money runs out and you're not able to work? R: Why do you believe this will happen? See you’re giving it strength. You're thinking mentally that this may happen. (SS: It may be close right now, it appears to be.) Well then thinking mentally about this makes it stronger. The more you worry about this the stronger it becomes, but, if you push that thought way out of your mind, your omnipresence will come forth. SD: What if you say, "To whom does this thought come? To whom does this fear come?" R: You can do that too, yes. SN: The fear of poverty is only because it’s the ego that's afraid that it's poor. R: Of course, remember the trees do not lack for leaves nor do the flowers fail to bloom, everything is beautiful and so are you. You can never experience lack, except mentally. Have faith, trust your Self and trust the power that knows the way. Which is within you, everything will be okay. SD: I remember you saying if everything is predestined then - at least on the earth plane - might not look at us trying to be poor or rich, couldn't you still look with the same detachment on that more or less? R: Well, but for whom is there poor or rich? Who has to look with detachment? It's back to the ego again. SN: The more afraid you are of being poor the stronger the ego is. For the Self, wealth and poverty are the same. So the more fear you have the further away you are going from the Self and what Robert says, "Is preordained," so worrying about it does not really alter it. Not that you should not do anything about it, but realize who you are. Who is rich and who is poor? When you reach a peace, it is beyond wealth and poverty. So whenever there's a fear of poverty, that's only the ego, and when there's the Self, you're always rich. The Book "The Lilies of the Field" and that's what that says, why worry about poverty, but of course we can do that but that’s... (SD: The goal.) R: The truth is you can never suffer, never, if you flow with the Dharma, you can never suffer, it's impossible. (SD: But if you seem to be then that's the ego suffering?) The ego is suffering, you've got to work on yourself. If you change conditions it's no good. As an example, if you think that your husband is giving you a hard time and he's unemployed and he can't support you, so you say, I'll trade him for another husband. Then when you get the other husband you've got other problems, because you've not resolved it in your own mind. It has to start and end with you. You can't change outside conditions. It only appears for a while that you can, but it always comes back again. The chickens always come home to roost. So wherever you go, wherever you run, you have to take yourself with you and if you've got a poverty consciousness, wherever you go you're going to experience poverty. So don't change anything, but work on yourself and see who you really are and what you really are and you'll never have to be concerned about poverty again. SD: It's like Jesus saying, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you," because we don't really do anything in that state because you've let go, you know. SS: Well, because I haven't worked and because I've got a disability now. And whether I should use the mind thing of picturing myself of being able to work and that's just as bad. Just to do that, or another way which is just temporary. And think I'm going to picture myself doing such and such... R: Yes. The best you can do is to make yourself happy. The happiness will take care of everything else. Really be happy from the depths of your soul. Do not look at conditions. Conditions change, but make yourself real happy because you are you. Not because you have something, but because you are you. Happiness has nothing to do with person, places and things. Happiness is a state of mind. If you can be happy it'll change everything in your life. (SS: You turn on the switch by self-inquiry?) Yes, but forget about the switch. Be yourself and you will know what to do. You did not come to this earth to suffer you came to find yourself and to be happy... (break in tape as Robert continues) R: ...and a big income, to think we're prosperous. It's wrong, our values are completely warped. (SD: And you have to say, "Whoever has the most toys when he dies wins." (laughs) That's so ironic in the Self because who cares about this or that or...) See poverty and prosperity are secondary. The first thing is to find your Self. That's why you came to this earth. Everything else will take care of itself. SS: I've been in both places, I've never had true poverty, okay but I've had big houses and cars and all that whole stuff and then I've had, where, I've had just enough to meet my needs and either way's okay I feel that, I feel that burden kind of like keep on meeting my needs, okay like... (changes topic) Health insurance? Even though I'm going off topic, but health insurance, isn't that a fear thing? (R: Of course.) But do we get it anyway because we live in this... (R: If you need it.) ...if you need it. I used it a lot this year. Some years I never use it at all, but you know, I have a roof over my head and food to eat, the things that I need money for are my phone, my health insurance and my car insurance and if I need to buy a pair of clothes. I'll buy that once in a while, I don't really need a lot. SD: But sometimes I say to myself and I think Robert taught me this, that at any given moment you have everything you need and this thought at any given second. (SS: I know right now.) Right now, are you hungry? (SS: No, no, insurance is paid. I go back to this health insurance business. There's something about it?) SN: Setting against the Self. (Yeah.) Any type of insurance. R: You have to do what you have to do. SD: Maybe she was led to have it for this need now, maybe she won’t need it anymore? R: Take this body as an example, I own nothing. (SS: You owe nothing?) I own nothing. There's nothing I own, but I've got everything. I have nothing but I have everything. (SD: But you're so much advanced, more advanced than us.) Well, I don't know about that, except that I have no needs. I live in a good place, I eat properly, but I own nothing, I'm just there. (SS: I don't own anything either.) I have no insurance. (SS: Oh yeah, I know that but I have use of a car, but I don't really own the car and I don't own the house that I live in.) SD: I think you are better off than me. (laughs) The way that I feel about insurance, this maybe a stupid earth plane reaction but it kind of ties in with this but the odds are just for money. Those companies wouldn't stay in business if they weren't making any money. (SS: I probably have used the insurance now, this year and why would they? They're way behind.) (laughs) Or they'll raise the rates. (laughs) R: But you got to be very careful when you talk about these things. (SS: You giving them power?) No I mean, if you don't have the consciousness, you can cause a lot of problems for yourself. I remember many years ago we had a class about something like this and I used to talk about when I lived in Hawaii, and I used to talk about the fact that I never locked my car and nothing has ever been stolen because I never felt that I needed to lock my car, so I never did. But I apparently said the wrong thing to somebody, because there was one person in the class who always locked his car because he didn't trust anybody. When he heard me talk about this, he said he was going to do the same thing. He was a shirt salesman. In the back of his car he had samples of about twenty different shirts and the one time that he didn't lock his car, someone stole all of the shirts out of his car. (laughs) So I said, "I didn't tell you to not lock your car" I said, "I don't lock my car!" But you have to do what you have to do until the time comes that you don't have to do it anymore. Everybody is different. (SD: That's what I meant by you being more advanced, you know.) I don't think I'm more advanced it just happened like that. SS: People are comfortable with that, you don't have any fear about it. R: I don't even think about it. (SS: The thing to do with insurance is if I still think about it, I probably just get it.) That's right. (SS: That means by buying it doesn't mean, make you get sick though necessarily? No, why should it make you get sick, unless you think you've got to get sick so you can use it. (SS: No, no, there has been a lot of times when I've had it and didn't even know I had it and didn't even use it.) Some people think that they're paying for nothing and they say, "So why don't I just get sick? I've got to use my insurance." (laughter) (SS: No, yea I don't care if I use it, I'll donate the money.) (laughs) (pause while students have some refreshments) SN: Robert I have a couple of questions. Do you consider Ramana your guru? R: I consider Ramana as my Self. I look at him as more than a Guru. I look at him as the Universe, as life itself, which is none other than my Self. So he is simply another aspect of me. When I was with him, I paid him homage because he was my Self. So I was paying myself homage, do you follow that? I treated him as I would treat myself. When I came, I brought food, I brought flowers because I am the flowers and I am the food. It's all one. But the actual word "guru" means teacher. And Ramana was no one's teacher. He was simply doing the same thing I do. He was simply confessing the truth about himself. And the people who wanted to sit around him were welcome. He didn't care. In other words he never said I am a teacher and these are students. He looked at everyone as himself and he just went on with his daily activities and people just sat all around him. When he would go to sleep on the couch, the whole auditorium they would go to sleep on the floor. SN: Well say for instance, some people will read some books, like "Who Am I" and they would be saying that, "Ramana's my guru." (R: Well it can't hurt.) (laughter) SD: In a sense of Master teacher? (R: It can't hurt.) SN: I was reading a book by Ramana. (SD: Did he really write it?) R: He just wrote some verses, but the mistake that most people make about that, is there's too much separation. And as long as there is separation there is going to be trouble. Because if you fall in love with the guru, the first mistake the guru makes, so it appears, then you hate him. Because physical Love is the other side of the coin of hate. But when you look at a guru as not being a person, but being your Self, that's different. (ST: Can you repeat that?) When you look at a guru as not being a person but being your Self that's a completely different story. You make a mistake according to your thinking. See because you give them your own... (ST: Egoless? That you’re egoless...) Yes I was just going to say that. You want God to live up to your expectations. (laughs) (SS: And that's your ego wanting freedom?) Yes, in other words, you are creating God in your image. So you expect the guru to do this. As an example, say you're celibate, so of course you're going to expect your guru to be celibate. Say you live in a cave, so you want your guru to live in a cave also. And if he lives in a house you'll say that's not a Guru because he lives in a house he should live in a cave. See we give all our expectations to the guru. SD: Don't we do that to God too? (R: To God, same thing.) And we anthropomorphize. R: Exactly, but the true way is to totally surrender to your Self. Then you will be led to the true sat-guru which is none other than your Self and then there will be harmony. Because then you couldn't care less what the guru does because the guru is your Self. SN: Robert doesn't that also happen in personal relationships rather than love the guru you have that love in your personal relationships and you have expectations and then you get put down? (R: Of course.) Not any different? (R: Of course.) SD: I think most people fall in love with an image of the other person, and what usually happens in relationships is that neither person can live up to the other so the other has to move forward. R: Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed. (SN: And should you also see the other person in the relationship as your Self?) Yes, you should. (ST: How do you do that?) R: You simply realize there is one Self and that Self is me. So you and I are one, therefore, whatever you do to me I can't be mad at you. (SS: Yes, but how do you do that? (laughs) By working on yourself. (SS: With self-inquiry?) Through self-inquiry, through mind control. (SD: Would you ask yourself, "Who feels hurt?") You can ask yourself "Who feels hurt? Who is seeing all these things? To whom do these feelings come?" ST: In every situation rather than change the situation you have to change yourself wherever you go? R: Yes you have to bring your Self with you. (ST: (tape unclear)) Same thing exactly. Well you have to draw a line some place, some time, depends on your advancement, your maturity. But if you're living with a person that you can't get along with and you want to develop yourself, and you can't be in those circumstances then you should change them. But if you're not working on yourself if you change your circumstances they'll pop up somewhere else. SS: But there's a lot of relationships where one person is working on themselves and the other person couldn't careless what’s happening and they can get along. Is that true? R: Yes, but as you work on yourself, you will know what to do. For instance if someone comes to me and they say, "I want your car." That’s not strange to me. (SS: They want your car?) They want my car, if I feel in the mood to give it to them, I'll say, "Take it," if I don't, I'll say, no, and forget all about it. But I won't think about it or I won't get caught up in the struggle. "Why does she want my car? What is he going to do with my car?" I don't think that way. (laughter) I'll say, "If you want it, take it," if I don't think so I'll say, "no I can't give it to you," and that's the end of that. There is nothing to think about, there's nothing to worry about. I once had a beautiful ring and somebody really liked it, so I took it off and gave to him because I'm not attached. What's rightfully mine can never be taken away and that's my Self, everything else comes and goes. ST: (tape unclear) R: You don't get attached but you have a loving feeling, a kind feeling. (ST: So how would you do it?) By being attached means you own them. It's like you own the person and they have to do what you want, that's attachment. SD: But can it be the other way round so that they own me? R: Yes it can, same thing, but if you're free then you love them, but you don't let them walk all over you. But you still love them. You do what is necessary. (SD: That's like the story of the man and his sons?) Something like that yes. Now I don't mean to make this cold and calculating. I mean, I love you more than anybody else can ever love you in your life and you don't know that but I'm not attached. Do you see the difference? SS: Even if you never saw us again it wouldn't make any difference. R: And yet I'd give up my life for you, can you follow that? You are me, we are one and I could do nothing but love you. Because I have no life. (SS: Oh?) Who's life are you going to be giving up? There's nothing to give up. ST: Well how do you deal with emotions? R: You ask yourself, "To whom do they come?" (ST: Yeah but why are they there?) They're not, you think they do, it's like hypnosis. You've been brought up in a way to have emotions but they don't really exist. So when you ask yourself "To whom do they come?" they'll disappear. SD: Emotions comes from thinking, right, and thinking comes from ego? R: Yes but then again you can say, "But I like to have good emotions I don't want to get rid of all my emotions." That's hard to explain, but when you're empty, you've got love and bliss and joy and you have those feelings toward everything. So you don't need those emotions that you're talking about, those are from the mind. You simply ask yourself "To whom do they come?" (ST: You mean it's that easy?) Oh yes, but you have to mean what you say. SD: And after, turn in again? (R: Yes.) Because we're so programmed and not aware of it. SN: It's not mechanical, it’s not a mantra "To whom do they come?" (SS: How can you keep that from becoming mechanical?) Mechanical is "To whom do they come? To whom do they come? To whom do they come? To whom do they come?" (SS: Right.) But when you really ask, "To whom do these come?" that's the difference. R: When you ask from your heart, instead of your head. (SS: Probably a different kind of feeling in a way?) Sure it does. SN: Well one you're truly asking, the other it's just mechanical, you're not asking at all. SS: That's how affirmations become, they just become mechanical - but there was nothing that soothed me and everything that I picked up or read that helped me in the past meant nothing. R: I'll tell you what affirmations do. Say you have to catch a plane and you're late, so you have to affirm to yourself, "I will catch this plane. It will wait for me. I'm going to catch this plane." So you go to the airport and the plane is late and you catch the plane and you say, "Boy these affirmations work," then the plane crashes. (laughter) (SS: Well you won't use that one.) (laughter) So forget about affirmations. (SS: Be careful what you ask for.) You'll get it. (SS: That's just the thing about health, wishing for that or wish for...) See that's funny to me, you know why? Because if you wish for health that means you've got a disease. (SS: Yeah, that's the affirmation for disease.) So you're affirming the disease is getting bigger all the time. You say I wish I was healthy, I wish I was healthy, I'm going to be healthier and healthier everyday. That means you are sicker and sicker every day so you can be healthier and healthier. (SS: How do they coin that, psychologists, Emile Coue?) Emile Coue. (French psychologist/optimistic autosuggestion.) (SS: Yeah and he had this everyday and in...) "Day by day in every way." (SS: ...everyday I'm feeling better and better.) That helps to an extent. (SS: For a period of time, but if you don't resolve it from the top, it will always be coming back and it’s going to be two sides of the coin.) Yes, those things are for neurotic people, all these affirmations, I'm getting better, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Forget about it, there is nobody to get better because nobody's sick. (SS: There’s no better-ness.) SG: Isn't there the other aspect of introspection? Which is being part of the creative process of manifesting the I-am and isn't there two directions to go in the aim of searching or questioning, "Who am I?" and the result of that, the gift from that questioning, the answer to that question, "I am This" and so do we not have responsibility to create the Self. (R: No.) To manifest the Self? R: The Self does not have to be, no, because who is manifesting the Self? In reality nothing only the Self exists and nobody needs to manifest it. It's like asking God to manifest God. You already exist as the Self. (SG: Are we creators? We have a mind that wants to create?) The mind is the creator. (SD: Put the mind in the ego realm.) SS: But the mind merges into the heart though? Okay when you get to that point. Is that what you're speaking of John when you get to that point when the mind merges with the heart. R: Everything that the mind creates, it creates problems. (ST: So the mind is not really needed?) Yes. SG: Is music a problem or art? R: Art and music are part of the material world, they are of a higher state, they are of a higher consciousness. (ST: The highest consciousness?) No, higher, but they are still a part of the relative world. When you are your Self, you are music. So you don't have to create music. SD: But I think what John is talking about is like what Joel Goldsmith teaches, who was one of Robert's teachers, when he said, "There's no one to ask for abundance because you are abun dance.” Abundance is not having a demonstration, you are abundance and those are simply manifestations of your abundance. SG: Well what makes so much sense to me, is the self-inquiring is that the answer to the question is not an affirmation it isn't, "I am this, I am that." In asking, "Who Am I?" The answer can happen naturally. Instead of a conditioned answer of who we believe we are. SD: Oh right, because you're not even supposed to answer as Robert says, you just wait for the answer and the answer will ultimately come to you. SG: Right but there is that aspect of the process, there is the - all I can do is ask, right? "Who Am I" but there is also the answer which is happening too right and is that the creativity? R: It's not really creativity. See the answer already exists by itself. And by inquiring, you're opening yourself up for the answer, but the answer is already there. (SG: Oh I see.) So there is noone needed to create anything. SG: But aren't we also opening up our bodies, our ego, our feelings and our minds, which have been in the past, closed, or we're not opening that up to the answers so that they can express through our minds? R: You can call it opening up, but those things that you mentioned do not exist. Therefore when you open up you just become, but you don't have to go through the process you're talking about. You simply ask the question and the answer comes by itself. It's like being in a room of darkness. To get to the light you don't have to go through a series of processes. You just turn on the switch and the light exists. It's the same thing. You don't have to create the light, you don't have to pray for the light. You don't have to make something so that the light will come, you simply turn on the switch. (SD: And it was there all the time.) (SG: Right) So by asking the question, that's the switch. (SG: But if we stop asking then the light goes out again uh?) You get caught up in the world, you get caught up in the world. (SG: Yeah.) SD: Also, I've got a question and tell me if I'm wrong, but the answer doesn't always come to you and that's why we keep having to do something for it. When it comes isn't that your awakening? R: Yes, it's like the sun and the clouds. (SS: It will come in the words?) No, it's like the sun and the clouds. The sun is always shining, it never goes away, but sometimes clouds block it. So it's an ignorant person who says there's no sun. What do I have to do to make the sun come out? So I'll climb upon a ladder and push the clouds out of the way. Or shall I get a wind machine and blow the clouds away. The clouds are always there because of ignorance. When the clouds dissipate the sun shines once again. (SD: But it never stopped.) It never stopped. The light within us is always bright and shining but we cover it up with ego and mind. So when the ego and mind is removed, we shine once again in all our splendor, like we're supposed to. (SD: Are the ego and mind the same thing?) Just about, the mind actually creates the ego, but those are just terms? (SD: So if you get rid of the ego, you get rid of the mind and vice-versa?) Yes, If you follow the I back to its culmination they both go. (SD: Oh that's right because you said that the mind is the projector and the ego is the screen.) Yes. SG: I can see that the highest aspect of the arts from the audience point of view is a tool to draw someone into reality. (R: That's true, true.) Like the Buddhist, Mendorla. But I know that without my mask of my ego I don't have a perspective, to create something. (R: How do you know?) Because I've been through that in my earlier years, of realizing that I had talent in a certain area, such as theatre. I also felt lost because I didn't have a perspective. I didn't know what I wanted to communicate. R: But you're still talking in egoic terms, because the ego was lost. The ego felt lost. (SG: Isn't there a positive aspect to the ego as far as being a mask of thought where the dance is concerned?) It appears like this. If you want to get caught up in the dance of life then you do those things you're talking about, that's true. (SG: And can we not wear the mask and be aware that it is the mask and see that there is a function for it in everyday life, getting along in the world?) If you want to, but it will still pull you back into earth again because you're attached to something. To become totally free you have to be unattached to everything. That doesn't mean you won't do it. You can become a great artist and not be attached and you do beautiful artwork. So you can do whatever you like but just don't be attached. Realize that you are not the doer. (SG: Is there a certain amount of attachment that a Bhodhisatva has to take on, in order to survive in the world?) No, your body will take care of itself. There's a power that runs the universe and it takes care of bodies. But you are not the body. So you work on yourself and your body will take care of itself and it will do whatever it came here to do. (SS: Whether it's theatre or not.) Whether it's theatre, whether it's not, whether it's nothing. Whatever you came here to do you are going to do but you have nothing to do with it. ST: But how do you know if you've done it already? R: You don't have to know. Something does know and something will lead you and guide you. But don't be attached to your body. (ST: To your body?) Yes. You will be guided. You will be directed in the right way. There is nothing to worry about. If you came here to be a nurse, no matter how you try not to be a nurse you're going to be a nurse. Nothing can stop you no matter what you do. SD: Because of predestination and karma? (R: Yes.) SG: In the younger years of life, isn't there a function that, what I want to be is the ego then right? But isn't there a certain amount that is necessary to get us through school and so training can happen, because if we decide before we've gone through that we are God and that's what we want to be then maybe we won't feel we have to go through the education and the processes of becoming. R: If you are realized, it all depends on what your body came here to do. Some people go to school, some people don't, everybody's different. But it doesn't matter. See we get caught up with all these thoughts. Keep thinking about your Self and everything will take care of itself. SG: It's like we have to have something to throw into the fire to begin with. You know what I mean? Doesn't there have to something, ego first, in order to burn up? R: The ego burns up last. It's like we have a fight with all of our thoughts and we get rid of everything and the stick we use is the ego and then we have to throw in the stick also. (SD: But I think he's asking if the ego's necessary up to a certain point? SG: Yeah.) The ego is never necessary. (ST: Why does it exist then?) It doesn't. You think it does. (laughter) It's because we're talking. SD: Because we're talking about the earth plane and the worlds evolution, right? (R: Yes, exactly.) It's all part of the dream. SN: Knowing the end you don't really have to ask questions and the only reason why you're asking questions so that you'll come to the realization that you don't have to ask questions. I have a question. (laughter) (SP: You don't have to ask it.) Dana Did you say, abundance is a Cadillac. SD: No I said abundance is not a Cadillac. I said abundance is within you. You are abundance and the Cadillac or Ferrari whatever was a manifestation of abundance, but... (R: How about the Volkswagon?) (laughs) ...that too, you don't have to ask someone yourself or God or anybody else for abundance, it's not like, "Please, please, please can I have..." because you are abundance and that realization will manifest these things, but the things are not abundance. We have to make that distinction. Things are not abundance you are abundance. SN: I have a question on consciousness. I suppose the question is, what is consciousness? And is consciousness the Self? And the thing that brought the question on is I was thinking about the fourth state, the waking state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state. Now in the dreamless state is there consciousness? And in my experience there is no consciousness and I questioned what is consciousness and what is the Self? And is the consciousness and the Self the same thing? R: Consciousness is an aspect of the Self. Consciousness is the creative principle, of the true Self, it's the next step before the true Self. It's the creative principle that creates everything. Everything that appears created comes from consciousness. So in reality you are consciousness. It's another name for awareness. All these names are synonymous really. Consciousness, Awareness, the Self, God, but yet they're also different aspects. Consciousness is like universal mind. SN: But is there consciousness in deep sleep? R: Yes, there is but you're not aware of it. (laughs) (SN: That's what I'm trying to get at. I remember reading that in the waking state, the dreaming state and the dreamless state, there is still the Self. I can relate to the waking state, I can even relate to the dreaming state. For me the dreamless state is, before I go to bed I'm awake, and then I go to sleep, and then I wake up and the period between going to sleep and waking up is only one second, although it was so many hours. So where's the consciousness or where is the Self? And what is the difference between the two?) Consciousness permeates everything and when you are a Jnani you are aware of the dreamless state, you're in the dreamless state but you are aware of it. The ordinary is person is consciousness when they're asleep and dreamless sleep they're not aware of it, that's the only difference. (SN: Oh so it's just a matter of levels?) Levels, it's a matter of levels of enlightenment. (SN: So a Jnani is conscious during dream, dreamless sleep.) A Jnani is always in dreamless sleep but is aware of it. (SN: So even when he's asleep he's conscious he's aware?) Yes. (SN: But a person that isn't a Jnani, when he's in deep sleep, isn't aware?) He's not aware. SG: It's difficult for me to comprehend awareness without subject/object, without something to be aware of. R: Here's an example: You take a baby. The baby is asleep, but the mother gives the baby a bottle and the baby sucks on the bottle, but is not aware of it because it’s asleep, but yet it's sucking on the bottle. So in dreamless sleep you're not aware of what you're doing, but you're pure consciousness. So when you become self-realized, you're pure consciousness but you're aware of it. You're awake! That's the difference. SN: So basically we're all asleep and it's not until we become awake that we can be aware during dreamless sleep? (R: That's right.) ST: So what do the dreams mean? Is there something in consciousness that it talks about? When I had a dream about doing something and woke up, why did I dream about that when I can do that? R: Dreams are part of the relative world. (ST: They are a part of the relative world?) They have to do with your experiences in life. They’re a part of it. (ST: What if you dream about something that we fear?) Dreams are simply images that come because of your past experiences. In other words if you were brought up frightened, and you fear things, you will dream fearful dreams about things that never happened but they'll be fearful because you created this in your dream mind. SD: Are you saying that they are part of the earth plane existence? (R: Yes.) If you awaken would you still dream? R: You can't dream when you're awake you can only dream when you're asleep. (SD: So a Jnani never has dreams, right?) No a Jnani has dreams sometimes. But the dreams are meaningless most of the time. (SD: Dreams are meaningless?) Yes, don't pay too much attention to dreams. (ST: Why do they happen then?) Because of your state of affairs. It vents emotions. It gets rid of temper tantrums, emotions. (SD: So they have meaning in that sense right? To keep us from acting out some of these things during the day?) Yes, it's a release of energy. ST: But what if you wake up and you've had that sort of dream that wasn’t pleasant and when you wake up it affects your mood? R: Then change your mood. (ST: I mean is that possible?) Simply realize it's a dream and ask yourself, "Who had the dream?" Again it's your ego that dreams. It's your ego that dreams not your Self. It's a third person looking at it. So you don't give too much power to dreams. A lot of people make a lot of things out of dreams. (tape ends) [TOC]